Proper way to use skirmishers / javelin throwers / javelin cavalry...etc

[Arcinatus]

ok i was wondering just what is the correct way to use skirmishers and javelin throwers? i know they are very good at armor piercing...but their range is SOO SHORT!!! you can only get off 1-2 throws before they have to either run away or die horribly in a melee.

soo...

i've been using them right in front of my infantry, that way they can fall back behind a wall of (idk..knights) and cause a few casualties before said knights engage, thus helping them out. also, they can still throw their javelins over said knights heads, thus helping out more.

but this is the only use i've found with these guys

edit: and i JUST recently noticed how damn good cavalry with javelins are at killing elephants

any advice for using javelin throwing units to full effect? especially considering one of my favorite factions (spain) relies on them a ton early game.

[Sorkenlol]

I have no idea how to use them, so far I've just put them exactly behind my infantry so they're protected, but after the enemy charge I can't use them anymore, their range is too short to throw at enemies in the back to avoid hitting my own troops, same with gun units, you can shoot 2 or 3 times with arquebusiers, once with hand gunners and 5-6 times with musketeers, whilst you can pull off 30 showers of arrows on several enemies with archers.

[mikil100]

In Rome I used them Pre-charge if I was attacking, if I was defending, I would try and put them in ambush/ defensive positions. Javelin men+ High places= Dead people... I think crossbowmen and longbow men are probably a lot better for armor piercing though.

[panurge]

The javelin guys, almughavars specially, can handle themselves pretty good in melee, depending on the enemy. Disable skirmish and let them engage. They have a bonus against cavalry. Jinetes are the great thing for Portugal and Spain. You can always rely on their speed. Try these:

1- Send Jinetes to destroy archers, crossbowmen and ballista. Use Alt+Click for them to charge with swords. They will kill archers very fast with a charge. And they're so fast you can easily move them away if a threat comes. You should disable fire at will and skirmish mode for better results

2- Send the Jinetes to the back of the enemy line and fire the javelins on the general bodyguards or heavy cavalry or heavy infantry. The heavy guys can't chase the jinetes. And if they try to, the jinetes will continue firing even while running away. They can shoot backwards

3- Send the Jinetes to disarrange the enemy line. They move pretty fast and do great as baits. The enemy will try to chase them, with no success, and will eventually expose all kinds of flanks. I killed 1000 sicilians sieging my castle with 200 Jinetes last week this way.

3- Send Almughavars to secure a high place, specially on the left flank ( from your point of view). As said above they're more effective on higher ground, and more yet on the side with no shield.

4- Send the Almughavars as conter-flank if you get hit by cavalry flank. they're pretty good at it.

Remember the javelin guys are not archers and can do well in melee. They're not the first line guys. Keep the knights for the shock, but dont be afraid to send them engage in melee in the flanks or against weaker foes, such as spears or missile.

Ps: still, the javelin is kind of nerfed. There's a mod that tries to better them, but i've not tried it.

Ps2: give them armor updates, they deserve it.

[jsktrogdor]

Javalin calvary are a gimme, theyre just light calvary but with a ranged attack (there also shocking good at killing genoese crossbowmen). I played as spain too and found that i wasnt a huge fan of javilins. To me it seems like a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation. Sure they can hold on in a melee against weak infantry, and ya they can throw a powerful missle. BUT against decent infantry your standard javilin man is no match, and that powerful missle has such a tiny range.

I remember I had a tiff with portugal and about half their army was javilin units. At first they did some awsome damage to my infantry, because I was hesatant to charge them with calvary. Once I did though the calvary just demolished them. If I had my way: javilin units would have a limited ammunition like 3 spears. They throw these as enemies apporoach (keep the small range) then they act just like standard infantry, its not a suggestion how to use them. Its a suggestion how I would change their stats: limited ammo in exchange for better melee

[Akodo]

1- Send Jinetes to destroy archers, crossbowmen and ballista. Use Alt+Click for them to charge with swords. They will kill archers very fast with a charge. And they're so fast you can easily move them away if a threat comes. You should disable fire at will and skirmish mode for better results

I frequently use this technique as well with my mounted javelin guys. It works moderately well. Light armor means that to have good success the enemy archers should be shooting at something else. Don't open a battle by charging your javelin guys right up the maw of archers.

2- Send the Jinetes to the back of the enemy line and fire the javelins on the general bodyguards or heavy cavalry or heavy infantry. The heavy guys can't chase the jinetes. And if they try to, the jinetes will continue firing even while running away. They can shoot backwards

I use my mounted javelin guys for this as well. It is a great way to whittle down the enemy bodyguard unit, who will often NOT bother chasing because it wants to stay close to the rest of the army for moral reasons.

[Sorkenlol]

Hey panurge, the alt+click thing, does that command your ranged troops to attack with melee weapons? If so, awesome, I've tried doing this for ages but thought it wasn't possible.

[panurge]

Agreed. They're really more about versatility than a fixed place on the battle. They're not the front guys on melee, but they can flank pretty well. They need to be protected form cavalry charge on foot, but jinetes can just run. Also, they have a stoping effect on infantry charge sometimes. I don't know how this work, but many times the enemy stops charging after a row of javelins and proceed on slow march instead.

Sorkenlol: yes, this make the ranged go melee. If they're on skirmish mode, they will try to run, so disable it if you're charging melee.

[Graf Nacht]

I also learned first hand that javelin cavalry is pretty good at killing heavy cavalry. The heavy cavalry can't catch them and while they try, your guys pepper them w/ ap javelins. Trust me there is nothing worse then to have your elite noble knights fall one by one from some stick throwing peasants...

[Empress Meg]

Moving to Battle Planning.

Devoirs The Empress

[Angrychris]

any type of ranged calv. are pretty much the same as they attack and run, for ground troops if u can angle them to the side or rear of an enemy you are engaged with then they will either destroy enemy moral and or the enemy units themselfs. i have seen a half full unit of jav. infantry pick a body gaurd unit apart faster then my 3 stacks of spearmen could, but it is better if the enemy is already engaged with your other troops.

[August]

Get javelin cavalry behind the enemy general's unit and start showering it with missiles at literally point blank range - they will drop like flies. (if they start chasing you, run - either way you'll at least delay/separate them).

The only really effective way I know of for jav. infantry is to quickly circle around the left flank and get behind, while main infantry formations have engaged each other. Again, point blank javelin salvo to the rear tears anything to shreds.
Problem with that it's a bit tricky to pull off.

I'm not a huge fan of jav. infantry, but jav. cavalry is very nice.

[jsktrogdor]

It should also be kept in mind that you really need to keep your eye on javalin calvary. They need to be very close to the enemy to attack so and many times their skirmish mode is not enough to get them out of harms way. If micromanaged properly their just as good as horse archers.

[August]

To be really effective, javelin cavalry should have skirmish turned off, otherwise they cannot get close enough to the enemy.
That's the trick about javelins: to be truly dangerous, they have to come very close to the enemy. At that range they start to do real damage.

[Elvallie]

I'll share a screenshot with you. Playing DLV with Total Rawr mini mod in VH/VH.

Look what I can achieve with adequate music:

They were andalusian infantry, bereber spearmen and muslim swordsmen. Btw, playing in VH/VH. =)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This army was: a general, andalusian infantry, bereber spearmen, muslim swordsmen and sudanese javelinmen.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Both victories with the same cavalry army.

[jsktrogdor]

Impressive, Ive always considered making an army like that but I think the shear ammount of micromanagement would drive me to twitching.

[Azurius]

Besides the mounted javelin throwers, I primarily use them as garrison fillers. For the most part their a cheap unit as well as their upkeep. But they do pretty well at the walls. At least they can fight a bit and wreak some serious hell on the slow moving siege engine troops. But of course at the cost of lighting up the siege engines. With factions that use a lot of Javelin Throwers, sometimes I can't help using them in replace of the Archers, but they are good General kills.

When I deploy my starting formation, I take one or two units and place them far off to the side. Then I send them the long away to the flank of the enemy where his General, or a Heavy Cavalry would be and have them annoy the hell out of them. Most of the time the ai ignores them while they move enroute, and if worse comes to worse they get killed. But I'd rather have two extra Heavy Infantry.

[Sorkenlol]

I'll share a screenshot with you. Playing DLV with Total Rawr mini mod in VH/VH.

How do you manage to do that? I've heard so much about jinetes, so I decided to try it out with a fairly even battle, I had 5 or 6 units of jinetes and the enemy had some infantry, but my ammo ran out way too quick, and when I had to charge them with my melee weapon they killed atleast 20-25% of the army. Do you know any good tactics for Jinetes?

[Elvallie]

Use them for flanking, try to make the infantry chase another unit and then position your jinetes to their right side or rear side. Deactivate skirmish mode and micromanage them. They need to be close enough to devastate.

[Spetsnaz GRU]

Javelin cavalry are great general killers and are REALLY useful against elephants. Turning skirmish and fire at will of, manuvering near the general/elephant, turn fire at will on, run away, rinse and repeat. Great against the Timurids as you can get rid of their amazing generals and elephants, a great advantage to Russia who start near the areas the mongols and timurids come from.