Question to Brit's supporting Georgia.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

If you can support the existence of Northern Ireland as an independent country within the Union due to the fact that via referendum the vote to stay within the U.K. won with a majority yet oppose Ossetian an Abkhazian independence after they overwhelmingly voted in support of Independence from Georgia ?

[boofhead]

Full respect to your question, but I just have to state something. Upon reading the thread topic I just kind of mentally slumped. All this stuff these days about politics and war and right or wrong....it just drains the soul. It's crap, really. It's groups of powerful people manipulating the common man's view via media. The 'sheeple'. And people are getting killed.

Sometimes I can almost sympathize with grenade-throwing anarchists from the 1920s.

[Yuiis]

Full respect to your question, but I just have to state something. Upon reading the thread topic I just kind of mentally slumped. All this stuff these days about politics and war and right or wrong....it just drains the soul. It's crap, really. It's groups of powerful people manipulating the common man's view via media. The 'sheeple'. And people are getting killed.

Sometimes I can almost sympathize with grenade-throwing anarchists from the 1920s.

Its groups of powerfull people arguing about what should be minor issues like the independence of two tiny regions in some corner of the world, but it really is some sort of positioning in a geo-strategical sort of war involving gas, oil and political influence. So the world seems to just argue about the small problem declaring it as a huge and terrible one, but what is being "fought" about is a whole other story and for some reason not a single politician talks about it.

It does drain the soul...theres just so many things to it...and so many things we don't know and I guess will never know about it...

[Admiral Piett]

I agree with boofhead 100% on this.

[Sidmen]

If you can support the existence of Northern Ireland as an independent country within the Union due to the fact that via referendum the vote to stay within the U.K. won with a majority yet oppose Ossetian an Abkhazian independence after they overwhelmingly voted in support of Independence from Georgia ?

I think this boils down to knowing exactly what your talking about. (or most people not knowing...) In Ireland, the referendum was carried out (more or less) fairly and actually represented the views of the region.

In SO, the referendum was conducted after a long period of (more or less) ethnic cleansing of Georgians, as they were either forcefully removed from their homes, or they were made so unwelcome that they left. After that, they held the referendum, which was already illegal (the Georgian government didn't allow it, and they are part of georgia), and got a 99% in favor of independence. While that looks overwhelmingly in favor of independence, you have to take into account that the SO turnout was something around 95%, while the Georgian turnout to the illegal vote was something around 0-5%. Which basically says, if you ask only the non-georgians (20-40% of their popultion, we can't be sure anymore) they want independence.

So basically, we have an illegal vote, that only asks one part of the population, and isn't recognized as fair nor right by anyone. (Not even Russia)

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

I think this boils down to knowing exactly what your talking about. (or most people not knowing...) In Ireland, the referendum was carried out (more or less) fairly and actually represented the views of the region.

The North Ireland sovereignty referendum only had what, turn out rate of just below 60 percent ? And even then, the troubles continued into the late 90's. The South Ossetian referendum had a turnout of just below 100 % and yet it doesn't actually represent the views of the region.

That's very strange.

In SO, the referendum was conducted after a long period of (more or less) ethnic cleansing of Georgians, as they were either forcefully removed from their homes, or they were made so unwelcome that they left. After that, they held the referendum, which was already illegal (the Georgian government didn't allow it, and they are part of georgia), and got a 99% in favor of independence. While that looks overwhelmingly in favor of independence, you have to take into account that the SO turnout was something around 95%, while the Georgian turnout to the illegal vote was something around 0-5%. Which basically says, if you ask only the non-georgians (20-40% of their popultion, we can't be sure anymore) they want independence.

So after a brutal ethnic cleansing of Georgians by Ossetians, only 20-40 % of the population are 'Non-Georgian' in South Ossetia.

Again, Strange.

So basically, we have an illegal vote, that only asks one part of the population, and isn't recognized as fair nor right by anyone. (Not even Russia)

Even if all Ossetian's voted Yes, and all Georgians voted no you would still have a roughly 2/3 vote in Favor of separation from Georgia entirely.

[Sidmen]

The North Ireland sovereignty referendum only had what, turn out rate of just below 60 percent ? And even then, the troubles continued into the late 90's. The South Ossetian referendum had a turnout of just below 100 % and yet it doesn't actually represent the views of the region.

That's very strange.

If you look, they both had only a turnout of ~60%. With one following an ethnic cleansing and the other not.. Don't look at only what you want to look at.

So after a brutal ethnic cleansing of Georgians by Ossetians, only 20-40 % of the population are 'Non-Georgian' in South Ossetia.

Again, Strange.

Actually, you have it in reverse.... 20-40% of the population IS georgian... Nothing strange since most of the population of the region had already left, all that remains is the holdouts.

Even if all Ossetian's voted Yes, and all Georgians voted no you would still have a roughly 2/3 vote in Favor of separation from Georgia entirely.

I don't know about your country, but mine would not take kindly to a bunch of russian citizens living in a region of my country that votes to join with russua... We'd most likely deport them to russia and confiscate their lands. The majority of those 2/3 votes hold russian citizenship - and want to live in Georgia, but only if they are defacto part of Russia.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

If you look, they both had only a turnout of ~60%. With one following an ethnic cleansing and the other not.. Don't look at only what you want to look at.

There was an ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia, not in Ossetia. Refugee's have fled on Both sides in the conflict. Georgian demographic's in Ossetia were always hovering from around 25 % of the population to just below 30 % of the population,

Actually, you have it in reverse.... 20-40% of the population IS georgian... Nothing strange since most of the population of the region had already left, all that remains is the holdouts.

I know that, In fact it's never been near 40 % and has never gone above 30 % I think I misread you or you didn't make yourself clear you said in Asking the Non-Georgians which you stated as 20-40 % of the population you would find that they were the only one's who wanted to be independent. Yet Ossetia is largely, Ossetian. So your statements that Non-Georgians make up only 20-40 % of the population (When it's in reverse) while also saying that Ossetian's enacted a campaign of Ethnic cleansing against Georgians doesn't add up.

I don't know about your country, but mine would not take kindly to a bunch of russian citizens living in a region of my country that votes to join with russua... We'd most likely deport them to russia and confiscate their lands. The majority of those 2/3 votes hold russian citizenship - and want to live in Georgia, but only if they are defacto part of Russia.

They never voted to Join with Russia, They wanted to be an independent state.

[Sidmen]

There was an ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia, not in Ossetia. Refugee's have fled on Both sides in the conflict. Georgian demographic's in Ossetia were always hovering from around 25 % of the population to just below 30 % of the population,

There doesn't need to be a Genocide to have ethnic cleansing. The fact that the Georgian population in SO has decreased in the past decade points to Ethnic cleansing.

think I misread you or you didn't make yourself clear

Yep. This entire paragraph says nothing that I didn't 'mean' to say. I can see how I mislead you.

They never voted to Join with Russia, They wanted to be an independent state.

Microstates don't exist. You can't feasibly have a country with 70,000 people and expect to be anything but absorbed into a larger one. Besides, they made themselves abundantly clear by seeking Russian citizenship...

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

There doesn't need to be a Genocide to have ethnic cleansing. The fact that the Georgian population in SO has decreased in the past decade points to Ethnic cleansing.

There was neither, You do realize that the Ossetian population has actually decreased with the Georgian's don't you ? Any other evidence you have for ethnic cleansing other then faulty demographic's ?

Yep. This entire paragraph says nothing that I didn't 'mean' to say. I can see how I mislead you.

So why is South Ossetia have a minority of Non-Georgians composed of 20-40 % the population ?

Microstates don't exist. You can't feasibly have a country with 70,000 people and expect to be anything but absorbed into a larger one. Besides, they made themselves abundantly clear by seeking Russian citizenship...

There's countries with populations much smaller then 70'000. Explain to me why San Marino, Monaco and Liechtenstein haven't been Incorporated into their larger neighboring states ?

[Scar Face]

If you can support the existence of Northern Ireland as an independent country within the Union due to the fact that via referendum the vote to stay within the U.K. won with a majority yet oppose Ossetian an Abkhazian independence after they overwhelmingly voted in support of Independence from Georgia ?

Because the Russians are a threat to British Influence and ideals. Smart Britain's know this, dumb Britain's are stuck in the cold war mentality. Same result.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

Because the Russians are a threat to British Influence and ideals. Smart Britain's know this, dumb Britain's are stuck in the cold war mentality. Same result.

Ipso Facto, Great game.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

Because the Russians are a threat to British Influence and ideals. Smart Britain's know this, dumb Britain's are stuck in the cold war mentality. Same result.

I couldn't give a for Russia's attention seeking .

1 Briton who has neither of your opinions

[Scar Face]

I couldn't give a for Russia's attention seeking .

1 Briton who has neither of your opinions

Naturally there is a large population of British who are apathetic to their surroundings, just another sad fact we all must accept.

[Markas]

Naturally there is a large population of British who are apathetic to their surroundings, just another sad fact we all must accept.

I'm sorry Georgia and Russia are our 'surroundings?'. By what definition?

[Elrond]

Georgians have been kicked out of South Ossetia and Abkazia which is why any vote will be fundamentally flawed. Its like the UK kicking out all the catholics in northern island and holding a referendum on independence - it would be a resounding no, in the same way that a referendum of those left in the breakaway states will be a huge majority in favor of Independence. Any referendum would be flawed because it wouldn't include the Georgians who lived there until recently.

I am not against regions breaking away - I support Scotlands 2010 referendum - if they chose independence then its the democratic will of the people. If you kicked out all the scots who supported the union it wouldn't be.

[Sidmen]

So why is South Ossetia have a minority of Non-Georgians composed of 20-40 % the population ?

Good god man, I've literally said it once, and agreed with you that it was written poorly on a separate post. 20-40% ARE Georgian. Not NON-GEORGIAN. Got it now?

There's countries with populations much smaller then 70'000. Explain to me why San Marino, Monaco and Liechtenstein haven't been Incorporated into their larger neighboring states ?

They more-or-less have been. They are protectorates of their larger neighbors, that live only because its not worth the hassle of planning an invasion. If they ever opposed their Protectors, they would be occupied in a minute without much thought.

Ever wonder why these places so closely tiptoe around 'Big Brother'? They're basically the Puerto Rico of Europe.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

Good god man, I've literally said it once, and agreed with you that it was written poorly on a separate post. 20-40% ARE Georgian. Not NON-GEORGIAN. Got it now?

It's actually the only thing about your Post I do understand. I don't understand how you can call what Happened in Ossetia ethnic cleansing while producing no evidence other then fake demographic's.

They more-or-less have been. They are protectorates of their larger neighbors, that live only because its not worth the hassle of planning an invasion. If they ever opposed their Protectors, they would be occupied in a minute without much thought.

Ever wonder why these places so closely tiptoe around 'Big Brother'? They're basically the Puerto Rico of Europe.

Way to change the goal-post's, at first you said they don't exist, now you say they are protectorates yet all the countries have full autonomy but their protection is fallen under the jurisdiction of a larger nation (I.E. San Marino is defended by Italy) Which is only a nominal manner given the small prospects of a major conflict ever happening in Europe in the near future.

[Oklop]

OK, correct me if I am wrong but the Kosovo declaration of independence was voted in the parliament by the representatives also with high percentage (almost 100%) for the independence (the few Serbian representatives did not vote).

I am sure that all the Albanians on Kosovo want to be independent, but I am also sure that at least the majority of SO and Abhazia also want to be independent (or at least independant so that they can join Russia.

I think that small countries are more or less forced to do as their more powerful "friends" ask them to do. Not that I am implying that Russia "asked" SO or that USA "asked" Kosovo to declare independence, it just happens that in both cases the situation was in the interest of the big "friends" and they supported/encouraged it.

Off topic: is it possible that this whole mess is agreement between Russia and USA so that they can increase arms production (big employer during the cold war) and sell to others? I know it is ridiculous but it is a good story/rumor to circulate