Cavalry Underpowered?

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Hi,

Does anyone other than me feel that cavalry have gone from being overpowered in vanilla to being underpowered in SPQR?

In vanilla, my standard, unimaginative 1:1 battle tactics would be "pin down enemy infantry, kill enemy cavalry with spearmen, have cavalry run round back and slaughter enemy."

Now, in SPQR (Great mod, by the way ) I tried the same. In a turn one engagement with Hannibal, I quickly pinned down his infantry, killed his cavalry with Samnites and his Elephants with Triarii. Then, and killed Hannibal himself with Principes (()).

Thinking this was going great, I ran the cavalry round the back to finish off the infantry. I managed about 6 kills, and then my cavalry were killed within about 30 seconds.

HUH!!! Even the Equites, who weren't historically awesome cavalry, could have managed better than this.

In a subsequent re-fight of the battle, I sent the cavalry after some skirmishers. They even had trouble taking those guys out, hardly managing at all.

Now, I (perhaps somewhat immodestly) think I'm a good general, and have won dozens of Heroic victorys with vanilla, even at 5:1 odds. And now, I am finding my tactics apparently obsolete!

Does anyone know where I am going wrong!

Thanks in advance,
RPP.

[Geleco]

Roman cavalry like the Equites are only really good in a charge... versus infantry theres really no point in using them long-term unless the enemy is fairly weak...

[Prokop]

Hi,

at first i unterstand the difference u hard to play cavalery at vanilla and now at spqr.
But i think the mod give a god reflect of the proceesing of the roman cavalery.
When u look at the old equites during the republic time , most of the soldiers of the cavaley unit were members of the nobilty or has the equites status.
The weapons were very easy an they arent so much strong.

Even in the principes time the roman cavalery dont have so much power. Their responsibilty was exploration, fast attack and flank control. When u look for example at their use at the limes in germania. I was on a uni-trip last month for 3 days and we have seen a lot of the fortresse, the wall, museem etc. The best example for the cavalery is the " Ala II Flavia milliaria" in Aalen with 1000 men. Perhaps they were the mayor troop in the region, but because their were fast and support the auxilia troops who stands an the limes, So also their the mayor troops were infantery.
A course in princips time the cavalery were much powerfull as in republictime, but not so strong that they alone can win a big battle.

so i think the mod gives a god reflect of the historical cavalery.
When u would like to use them, use them at flanks, against other cavalery, as support troops, exploration and of course to murder down the enemy when they flet.

[Echo26]

I think there is something to say though for a unit of equites being unable to deal with a unit of skirmishers or archers at times. Maybe a slight increase in unit size would be of use, but that is my personal opinion.

[YouDied]

I noticed only way to kill skirmishers and archers good is to attack them with 1 cavalry unit. Then flank with another. They should route really quick.

[Echo26]

I don't have time to micromanage that when I have 8 units of skirmishers decimating my line..

[BiggBudd]

Hire merc cav is best solution, till you get better cav later. Most cav has armor piercing weapons, [halves effect of armor], and is best used to charge when the enemy is exhausted.
Ps only cav seem to get "charge bonus", and you need to string them out to get the full bonus.

[lt1956]

I have no idea what your doing wrong but Skirmishers and Archers have penalties for fighting cavalry which means they get their rear handed to them! SPQR was Massively TESTED in Battles. I suggest redoing your tactics. Plus keep in mind some Archers are Armoured more like chosen etc.

[Echo26]

The lord has spoken.

Let it be written. Let it be done.

[Marcus Porcius Cato Uticencis]

Firstly, I beg you, stop all those pubescent and ridiculous comments like "The lord has spoken" etc. Such infantile adoration cant please anyone. He definitely did a great job, but thats it. Anytime he writes a single post I know what will follow - "Oh master, you greatest of all, Sun is shining from your ***" etc. etc. stuff. Simple "Hey Lt1956, nice to see you around again" would be fine sometimes...

But to the topic. I definitely dont think cavalry is underpowered. It could have made such impression if you "jumped" from vanilla right to SPQR, which doesnt have to be the best idea since SPQR is really a tough challenge for more experienced players. SPQR has definitely the best battle system across all mods known to me (and I know most of them, all of those major ones).

It is correct using of cavalry what makes it powerful. You cant expect to send a few horsemen to the mass of infantry troops (better spearmen) and expect them to rout. Ive fought like 500 SPQR battles so far. And in 90 percent of them, cavalry units were who have won the day for me. And many times, they have saved me an already (almost) lost battle. One example, battle I fought yesterday:

XV. Africa, 191 BC. Defending against a carthaginian army and its reinforcements (c. Aderbal – 1942, Hiram Lambaesis – 3778) with 2928 men. CLEAR VICTORY. Kills: 4674. Losses: 2350. Legion status: on duty - weakened, 1600 men (1022 healed). 3 elephant units destroyed! Conquering city of Carthago, citizens exterminated. For the exceptional bravery and outstanding performance of the fourth legion in this battle given cognomen „VICTRIX“.

Fourth legion was facing power more than twice bigger, full of poeni infantry and with three elephant units, all silver chevrons. They were coming from opposite directions, like hammer and anvil. It was tactically the most difficult battle Ive fought so far. I thought I had to loose, and I almost did, if there werent my cavalry - two alae of equites and general. At first, they kept enemy archers away, so they couldnt pepper and weaken my infantry. Still, before I slaughtered enemy elephants with velites, they caused huge damages in my lines, routing most of hastati. In the middle of the battle, lasting like one hour, I was greatly overwhelmed, like 10 to 1 (I dont exaggerate). I let my cavalry rest in a safe distance while two last cohorts of triarii and like three cohorts of principes with one unit of slingers kept the enemy, but they were quickly loosing to his enormous numbers, being also peppered by like 10 (!!!) units of archers. Luckily, the enemy lost both generals and I kept mine, precious Spurius Antonius. Then there was a great moment in which I took the cavalry and outflanked the enemy and charged his rear, routing some of the tired troops, which bought me time. Then I had to chase away archers, routing some of them, then again back to troops and so on. As I couldnt chase all his troops at the same time, some of them stopped running away and got back to battle, so I had to rout them again:/ It was a terrible and bloody battle, still I was able to win - thanks to cavalry (and also one unit of slingers set to skirmishing mode)




The power of cavalry is NOT in its ability to kill lots of enemies (I dont include chasing routed enemies). Its power lies in correct using acording to your TACTICS! They are not supposed to do harm or considerable damage to enemy lines, their ABILITIES is what matters. Heres a little guide how to use cavalry in SPQR:

1) DONT BE HASTY. Wait for your time. You will see your precious infantry die, but dont let it provoke you, wait for the right time. When is the right time? I usually follow this scenario: Let the enemy approach/approach the enemy. Have your spearmen on your flanks and destroy with them enemy cavalry. Tire enemy troops and kill enemy general, if any possible. THEN comes the right time. Take your cavalry (put together into one big bunch on your right wing) and outflank the enemy, dont go to far and storm his left wing. Enemy infantry there will CERTAINLY rout (in all those approx. 500 battles they always did). Let your infantry chase them and continue with your cavalry to next unit along the line, until they are all routed, then chase the fleeing enemy.

2) KEEP IT MOVING. Dont let your cavalry stop. Whenever they dont move, they are much more vulnerable, you have to be pretty quick in commanding your units in SPQR, now matter how slow pace are battles here, because even in one hour long battles its usually matter of seconds which wins (or looses) the day, as in real world. Also try to give each unit command separately, the AI is stupid and especially cavalry units show some pretty weird behaviour (sometimes) if commanded as group.

3) USE IT WISELY. Remember that battles in the roman world are not medieval and your cavalry is not byzantine cataphracts. They are not strong as they WERE NOT strong. As Romans were pretty short people, having huge problems with controling those big animals, they dont believe cavalry pretty much and relied on their disciplined heavy infantry. If they used cavalry, then mostly for scouting, harrasing enemy skirmishers and skirmishing with enemy cavalry. And thats it, dont expect more. I dont recommend using it against enemy cavalry, most cavalry units in the game are stronger than roman cavalry. The one and ONLY purpose of you cavalry should be to strike enemy infantry at the right moment to rout them. Sometimes, to hunt enemy archers who stay behind the frontline. Dont expect more.

4) APPLY TACTICS! Read books, search wikipedia. SPQR really forces you to employ tactics and I have to say I found historical roman tactics pretty useful most of time. Fight historically to FEEL those times and enjoy it. Take five maniples of hastati, behind them five maniples of principes and behind them (or on the flanks) three maniples of triarii. Concentrate your cavalry on the right flank, and attack his left wing first (MOST useful tactics). Or (as I do) find your favourite tactics against every single faction you fight here, because they have all different types of units. And obey house rules

And most importantly - ENJOY YOUR GAMING!

[BiggBudd]

Nice post marcus, esp the cav delay tactics.
A bit strong on poor echo thou, thought it was tongue n cheek myself.

[Pinkkiller]

well roman cavalry ain't the best unit the romans have...if you wanna charge head on with cavalry lol I would advice you to either hire merc or play parthia... or some other nation with cataphract

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Thanks everyone for all your time! I had no idea I'd get so many replies, this is great! I'll certainly take everyone's comments on board (no pun intended), especially those of Marcus Porcius Cato Uticencis (that was an admirably succinct and time-taken post by the way). Many thanks to everyone, and if any moderator wants to close the thread now I'd be more than happy for them to.

Now I just have to kill those pesky Carthaginians!

Regards,
RPP.

[Valerius Tiberius]

in the beginning i also felt the cav was underpowered
but after a while you get used to it and learn how to fight with it
and their really correct man

Valerius Tiberius

ps: nice to see you again LT!!

[Echo26]

Yes I'll be the first to admit I have infantile adoration for LT. He managed to make a great game out of something that was medicore using modding skills I could only dream about having. I also trust in his judgement for the most part so any point I have been arguing if LT feels strongly enough to speak about it (Which is about the only time LT posts anything anymore) I will usually trust him.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

RE Cato: Thanks once again! Your guide was one of the best I've seen and I'll keep you posted on developments.

As you say, Carthaginian impertinence can no longer go unheeded! To arms!

(Right after this beer)

[Marcus Porcius Cato Uticencis]

Hey RPP, you are more than welcome, I hope it helps! Im sure that once you get fully into the mod, you will love it (as we do!). The beginning is always harsh, especially thanks to those impertinent carthaginians, pillaging freely southern Italy. Once you deal with Hannibal and Theophanes, its not that bad.

One or two advices for free - be sure to build among first buidlings mine in Arretium and as soon as possible next tier palace in Capua. That will help you a LOT. And consider fighting those two carthaginian armies with two legions (I mean, one after another, each with two legions). It helped me a lot, in my campaign the cost was high, I lost Quintus Julius commanded by that stupid AI, but in exchange I had very low losses, like 600 men in first and 800 in second battle all together, which is quite good (I think).

Let us know how you are doing!

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Echo, whilst I agree that SPQR is utterly awesome, and is a vast improvement on vanilla Rome, I think it's hardly fair to call the original product mediocre! RTW was, to my my mind, one of the greatest, oh who am I kidding? THE greatest game ever! Only 3 years of frequent playing has made me turn to mods.

Regards,
RPP.

P.S I noticed the stuff in my last post about closing th thread was kinda hidden away, so if anyone DOES want to close the thread, do. But keeping it going is cool too.

Bye.

[Echo26]

RTW was, to my my mind, one of the greatest, oh who am I kidding? THE greatest game ever!

Well to each his own. Everyone has there own opinion, so I personally try not to insult others.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. I was just stating my opinion.