Pakistan's Turmoil - Grown Greater

[Central Asian Qaghan]

First the corner stone of Pakistan stability leaves in musharraf and now its grown even worse with Nawaz Sherif backing out of the government taking a large chunk with him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7580931.stm

As a person who has family in Pakistan, I'm worried about how it is being treated. How can two men, one who has charges against him regarding corruption and swiss banks hounding him and another who's also full of corruption and has charges of investing state money into his own mills and companies be in charge of a country? This question astounds me. Are the Pakistani people blind to the rape of the country done by the Butto's and the Sherif's?

I for one am for another military dictator or a new party that will kick these corrupted "parties" made out of local nawabs or lords, bandits and robbers who stole, looted millions from coming into power once again.

What Pakistan needs is a new party once free of religious extremes, free of banditry and free of the presence of corrupt officals.

Edit: Though there is a sliver lining after all. The Government has banned the Taleban and its accounts are frozen. How this plays out is anyones guess. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7580475.stm

[Heinz Guderian]

Pakistan has been run by elites for 60 years now. Nothing will change. Its a shame.

[Gumpfendorfer]

What on earth makes you think Musharraf has been any better?
As corrupt, incompetent, obsessed with the Kashmir and above all a founder and stanch supporter of many of the extremist groups in Pakistan.
The economy in ruins and full blown rebellion, and having destroyed what was left of what is called civil society. The military=large part of the problem.

True the civil parties are hardly better, but why don't you give it a try for a while? In the long run that's Pakistan's only hope of surviving.

What your country needs is a french revolution, but ooops - your not supposed to say that. The entire elite and that includes the army is as guilty has hell to this situation. All want to keep their servants and shoepolisher they can bully and mistreat. It is no coincidence the literacy rate is so apalling.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

True the civil parties are hardly better, but why don't you give it a try for a while? In the long run that's Pakistan's only hope of surviving.

Uh No. Have you ever heard of the 90's? Guess which two parties ruined Pakistan? Uh huh.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Turkish Sultan, do you know any Pakistani? Because your sentiments in your original post represent exactly how Pakistanis feel about the PML and PPP personalities.

The problem is that our leaders are chosen not by the people but by the White House and, to a lesser extent, the ISI chiefs. The whole deal between Benazir and Musharraf was brokered by Miss Rice and the Saudis ended Sharif's exile so that they, too, could have a stake in Pakistani affairs. It's seriously messed up.

It's quite interesting to note though that from it's inception, the first Muslim political party of India (the All India Muslim League) comprised entirely of nawabs and landlords. This was because after centuries of rule, Muslims had become backward because of advancements in science and a pre-occupation in imperial wars, sports, building pretty buildings and what not. The common Muslim man in India couldn't even read the Quran until it was translated into Persian and Urdu here in the late eighteenth century by ShahwaliUllah and his sons. Anyway....

To sum it up, in Pakistan, if you want a vote as a member of parliament, it helps a butt-load if you're aligned politically with one of the larger factions. Otherwise, you don't get attention. Most of the voters here are from the lower classes (our voter turnout varies from 30-40%) and those people don't recognize the issues, they just recognize the big faces and the petty favors they've done. Moreover, the parliamentary system ensures that we get the same faces over and over again. Also, it's interesting to note that most of these landlords get elected over and over again because the villages they own vote for them only - they usually win unopposed - only the religious parties dare stand against them because the landlords are armed to to teeth and there's no police in the deep rural areas.

Perhaps one of the few voices of reason in Pakistani politics comes from Imran Khan and his Justice Party. He speaks the truth blatantly and hence, he's seen as somewhat of an "amateur". His party is weak because he's spoken out against the corrupt Sharifs, Bhuttos and the MQM. In fact, Khan can't even come to Karachi because the MQM have threatened to kill him.

If I were to choose the least of the evil in the current coalition, it would be Sharif's PML (N). At least they're making a stand and they're doing what the people elected them to do - getting rid of Musharraf and restoring the entire judiciary. Zardari is not committed to the latter part of the people's mandate because they top judges might just pursue the justified corruption cases against Zardari. He doesn't want that obviously.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Turkish Sultan, do you know any Pakistani? Because your sentiments in your original post represent exactly how Pakistanis feel about the PML and PPP personalities.

My grandparents were born in Dehli and we had houses there. We were among the remaining Mughal population. After the partition my Grandfather worked for the Pakistani government as an accountant. I've personally lived in Pakistan for 4 years, but we have always come back to vist my grandfather who used to live there but he has passed on. One of my aunts lives in the house which is in Karachi.

The problem is that our leaders are chosen not by the people but by the White House and, to a lesser extent, the ISI chiefs. The whole deal between Benazir and Musharraf was brokered by Miss Rice and the Saudis ended Sharif's exile so that they, too, could have a stake in Pakistani affairs. It's seriously messed up.

Not only that, but the Americans and the British too are included in the deal and should be held as terrorist sponsoring states. Altaf Hussain lives in London while spouting his terrorist theories in Karachi. While the MQM was a good thing, Altaf has ruined it. He now owns a British passport and the government refuses to extridite this terrorist.

The Americans were harboring Zardai and his ilk from the rightful justice he so deserved. It is a mockery of thos War on Terror that the Americans harbor terrorists, murders and corrupt officals and on the other hand declares and fights wars in the name of combating terrorism.

Most of the voters here are from the lower classes (our voter turnout varies from 30-40%) and those people don't recognize the issues, they just recognize the big faces and the petty favors they've done.

My dad and grandfather told me the they don't care about the issues and since the lower classes don't read that well symbols were put up to help recongize them. I remember there was a Kite, a wheel, a rose and others.

only the religious parties dare stand against them because the landlords are armed to to teeth and there's no police in the deep rural areas.

The Religious parties have their hands dirty as well. They are not the saviours but the same ilk as the PPP and the PML (N).

Perhaps one of the few voices of reason in Pakistani politics comes from Imran Khan and his Justice Party. He speaks the truth blatantly and hence, he's seen as somewhat of an "amateur". His party is weak because he's spoken out against the corrupt Sharifs, Bhuttos and the MQM. In fact, Khan can't even come to Karachi because the MQM have threatened to kill him.

Imran Khan has done good things like his hospital and speaking for justice, but I don't think he will ever play a big deal.

If I were to choose the least of the evil in the current coalition, it would be Sharif's PML (N). At least they're making a stand and they're doing what the people elected them to do - getting rid of Musharraf and restoring the entire judiciary. Zardari is not committed to the latter part of the people's mandate because they top judges might just pursue the justified corruption cases against Zardari. He doesn't want that obviously.

I hate to admit it, but to do a lot of good one must do a little evil in this case would apply. While I have no love for the Sharif's nor his party, he has control over the Punjab and thus he does control the majority of the parliment. He might only be somewhat good for this case.

Though he's done a stupid move and Zardari has given him is just rewards. Seriously, why did Nawaz ever think Zardari will do anything for him? Now he's lost everything. Soon I think he'll be gone from the Punbaj area as well.

[motiv-8]

Do Pakistanis take Bhutto's son Bilawal seriously in his intentions to run for government? As I understand it, he's made himself out to be a partier, playboy-type.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Do Pakistanis take Bhutto's son Bilawal seriously in his intentions to run for government? As I understand it, he's made himself out to be a partier, playboy-type.

That's our democracy. Seriously, if tomorrow, Pakistanis find out that you're (somehow) Benazir's son, too, they'll be ready to vote for you. Just like that. In the old days, kings let their children rule and it hasn't changed just as yet.

Every time something happens in Pakistan I get nervous. Nuclear weapons and "Pakistan Taliban winning" do not give me easy thoughts.

Even if the Taliban "win," they'd be thousands of kilometers away from our nuclear weapons. Remember, they don't have tanks or an airforce so they can't mount medium-long range offenses. They can only engage in hit and run operations in the mountainside.

However, the paranoia that Pakistan's nuclear weapons will fall into the hands of the "terrorists" has a purpose. A lot of American leaders are saying that despite the fact that they're aware of the ground realities (that the Taliban can never physically get hold of the nuclear bases). Some people here are starting to say that America's long-term plan is to disarm Pakistan for a variety of reasons and it's using the current instability to scare its people enough that they think that Osama getting his hands on a nuke (although Pakistan doesn't have ICMB's and it's best missile only goes as far as 5k kilometers) and delivering it to the American mainland is inevitable.

Pakistan needs her Atatürk. To secularize and modernize the country. Her conservative Islamists have been preventing her to be better, among other things.

I think Musarraf did try to be Atatürk of Pakistan. No wonder about that he was at Turkey for 5-6 years at his military education times.

I hear that he will come to Büyükada, Istanbul, Turkey for his exile from Pakistan.

Attaturk not only united a (defeated) nation but led by personal examples and I'm sure you know how many foreign powers and victors of World War I he literally kicked out of his country. Musharraf was inspired by Attaturk but he was nothing like the man.

Yeah, he's a fan of Turkey (and so am I) although I'm not a secularist. However, I go agree that Pakistan needs a leader on the extreme spectrum of affairs - someone who follows one path and does not deviate from it. That is something Attaturk did and he succeeded.

[Каие]

I'd say the same about Arabs though. Everytime I see someone being blown up in the news it does not give me easy thoughts but thoughts of if they come here.

And? what do you want a medal? Every time I see a Turk on TV telling people they can't dress the way they want I get scared.


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Even if the Taliban "win," they'd be thousands of kilometers away from our nuclear weapons. Remember, they don't have tanks or an airforce so they can't mount medium-long range offenses. They can only engage in hit and run operations in the mountainside.

The Taliban have already infiltrated Pakistan Secret Service and their government. The fear is the country and government falls to the Taliban not the land. It's not like the population oppose them, they are all up for Jeehad! Or at least the pakistanis i've seen and know.

[Gumpfendorfer]

Do you have any proof of this? Have you actually lived in Sindh during her time? I have.

You can read that explicitely in Shuja Nawaz's his book "Crossed Swords", Pakistan, its Army and the wars within. In the book by the way is well described how the Army constantly is blocking any attempt by a civil government to follow an independent policy.


I am not arguing that the PPP or Bhutto's are not corrupt, because they are.
The army is not an inch better.

For one the Armies budget, which ranging from the early 50/60 sixties was eating up 70% of the Governments annual budget. That has dropped officially to somewhere between 20 or 30% I think. Unofficially it is much much more still. Read "Military Inc", Inside Pakistan's military Economy, a well documented book by Ayesha Siddiqa

No civil government could touch that, as well as foreign policy and the nukes project. Most of Pakistans government money is being wasted on these three issues. You'd wish now they'd spent the money on schools and infrastructure.

Furthermore you are misreading the situation: The reason Sharif stepped out of the coalition is as follows: The three most important jobs in Pakistan are; Chief of Staff, the top monkey, followed by the President who can sack the Prime minister's Government, then followed by the Prime Minister which leads the civil government.

The political instability is partly the result of the fact that the constitution has been changed by the military into a presidential system. Reason is obvious: now the the president/army have the constitutional right to send home the prime minister/government.

This troijka always end up in a deadlock in Pakistan. Sharif will be a lame duck if Zardari becomes president, with the army backing him. Zardari is quite happy to play along with the army I guess.

However, the paranoia that Pakistan's nuclear weapons will fall into the hands of the "terrorists" has a purpose. A lot of American leaders are saying that despite the fact that they're aware of the ground realities (that the Taliban can never physically get hold of the nuclear bases). Some people here are starting to say that America's long-term plan is to disarm Pakistan for a variety of reasons and it's using the current instability to scare its people enough that they think that Osama getting his hands on a nuke (although Pakistan doesn't have ICMB's and it's best missile only goes as far as 5k kilometers) and delivering it to the American mainland is inevitable.

Ermm, not quite true Sextus. The reason the world would like to see a Pakistan without nukes is the fact that Pakistan was more than willing to use them on three occasions against India. Apart from selling technology to Iran, Lybia, North Korea, Suadi Arabia, Syria, Saddam and yes former aids of Musharraf have had contact with Al Qaida to sell some goodies to Al Qaida. And were recruited by Osama in the process.

Saddam was offered a nuclear device with missile. Off the shelf, wrapped up in nice paper. Saddam refused, he thought it was a con, to good to be true. Pakistan offered the same to the Saudi's and god knows who else. That is one of those 20 million dollar question who a lot of people liked to see answered.

[Yuri Orlov]

we can only hope that both the US, Russia, China, France and the UK nuke Pakistan

you want to know what differs Pakistan from a pankake?

- no, what

do you know of any pankakes that wre nuked by india?

hahaha

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Uh, thats 5 countries there bud. You can't use "both". "Both" means two. you have 5 listed.

[Yuri Orlov]

Uh, thats 5 countries there bud. You can't use "both". "Both" means two. you have 5 listed.

I don't learn english grammer, english grammer learns me!

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

I'm sorry but it's grammatically impossible for "both" the "US, Russia, China, France and the UK" to nuke Pakistan.

Furthermore, if India does choose to nuke Pakistan, it would contaminate not only its only source of water but would also get a good dose of radiation from the East-Westerly "Western Depression" winter rains. If Pakistan nukes India, it would suffer in the same way.

So I'm sorry but you should get your "pankakes" elsewhere.

@The Turkish Sultan, I see - that's quite interesting. So you agree that Pakistan is entirely under neo-colonial control.

Well, the PML Q league has rejoined PML N so the 'N' league is a force to be reckoned with now. Nawaz has broken away from Zardari because the latter has failed to keep any of his promises. I'd be surprised if he even repeals article 52-B. Nawaz WILL, therefore, have a parliamentary majority in Punjab and Balochistan and the second-biggest share in the National Assembly. I hope some good will come out of it.

Either way, the PPP has failed miserable when it comes to performance and keeping its promises. It's a dying force until Bilawal can perform street magic - quite literally. So in 2012, if things keep going this way, Nawaz will win a landslide victory.

In a poll on another forum, 48 users chose Martial Law while 12 voted for preferring Zardari's presidency to that!

[Central Asian Qaghan]

@The Turkish Sultan, I see - that's quite interesting. So you agree that Pakistan is entirely under neo-colonial control.

The whole reason why there was a split between Pakistan and India was that if they were togeather, it would be a force to recon with. The British tried their darnest to stop anything like that. Jinnah was just a stooge, or that what my grandfather used to say. "Sick man, he never said anything like that" was his usual statement to PTV. He said it to Ilama Iqbal as well.

Well, the PML Q league has rejoined PML N so the 'N' league is a force to be reckoned with now. Nawaz has broken away from Zardari because the latter has failed to keep any of his promises. I'd be surprised if he even repeals article 52-B. Nawaz WILL, therefore, have a parliamentary majority in Punjab and Balochistan and the second-biggest share in the National Assembly. I hope some good will come out of it.

I hope so as well. I was there when Nawaz started the yellow taxi program and I've heard he's done good with the highways and stuff like that. Like I said before, he's one of the lesser evils.

Either way, the PPP has failed miserable when it comes to performance and keeping its promises. It's a dying force until Bilawal can perform street magic - quite literally. So in 2012, if things keep going this way, Nawaz will win a landslide victory.

In a poll on another forum, 48 users chose Martial Law while 12 voted for preferring Zardari's presidency to that!

The whole reason the PPP's there is by American will. If the judges came back, firstly they would go after Zardari and Musharff and secondly they would bring in Nawaz who isn't that inclinded to the US.

I could see how Martial law and Zardari would be more peferable. I would choose them just for the reason that the Taliban could be eliminated from the reigon up north and we can focus on the economy more then.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

The whole reason why there was a split between Pakistan and India was that if they were togeather, it would be a force to recon with. The British tried their darnest to stop anything like that. Jinnah was just a stooge, or that what my grandfather used to say. "Sick man, he never said anything like that" was his usual statement to PTV. He said it to Ilama Iqbal as well.

I have to disagree with you there.

Iqbal never even wanted Pakistan (he died before the Pakistan Movement began in 1940) - he only wanted a semi-autonomous Indian north-west.

Jinnah, too, campaigned for Muslim rights such as having separate electorates, having representation in the cabinets and other spheres of government, etc. Remember, Jinnah was a lawyer and a "constitutional" fighter, not a politician per se.

In fact, when Chaudry Rehmat Ali called for the creation of a fully independent Pakistan in 1933 with his pamphlet, Jinnah refused to even meet him. An independent Muslim country in India hadn't even crossed Jinnah's mind prior to that.

At this point, I'd like to add that Allama Iqbal once said that the condition of Muslims in India (economically, culturally, socially) was so bad, that a time would come when the only Muslim remnants in India would be the Taj Mahal and the Red Fort - just like the only Muslim remnants of centuries of Muslim rule in Spain are the Al-Hambra and other buildings.

The turning point for Jinnah came when Congress won the Indian general elections in 1937. Those were some of the toughest years for the Muslims of India and it was then that they realized how in a Hindu-majority India, they'd never be represented. It was at that point that the Pakistan Resolution was passed and the Muslim League's role then was shifted towards the creation of Pakistan.

As a testament to the will of the people, and not the will of the British, the Muslim League secured almost 90% of India's Muslim vote in the 1945 elections after the Pakistan Resolution was passed.

The creation of Pakistan had become a necessity.

[Gumpfendorfer]

Uh No. Have you ever heard of the 90's? Guess which two parties ruined Pakistan? Uh huh.

Pakistan has been ruined long before that. The decay started immediately after Jinnah died. Most rulers have been military and therefore the military has been most responsible. Zia Ul Haq was the last drop and the worst, all of the problems it is facing today were set in motion by Zia. It has ruined the country. Although daddy Bhutto did his best to ruin the country as well, it is funny how few times Zia is mentioned in the threads about Pakistan.

Benazir Bhutto was on the leash of the Army all the time, she could do very little. She did not even have access to Government records, forbidden by the Army. When she entered office, all that was there was a desk, telephone and chair. Literally. Despite all her flaws, she would have been the only one to give Pakistan some sort of unity.

You also seem to forget that Nawaz Shariff was an invention of the military, in order to block the PPP from power. And thats the game the military always played to stay in power: creating political parties to divide and rule. Most of the extreme religious parties came out the sleeve of the military one way or another.

When things turn too hot, they hand over rule to civil governments, who off course are not capable of clearing out the mess without cooperation of the military. After civil governments fails the military steps back in. Nice system

The Pakistan military is military Cuban, Chinese or Birma style. A large corperation sucking the blood out of a state.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Pakistan has been ruined long before that. The decay started immediately after Jinnah died.

No. Pakistan was on the right track in the 50's and early 60's before the war. After the war it was going well till Zia came to power.

Benazir Bhutto was on the leash of the Army all the time, she could do very little. She did not even have access to Government records, forbidden by the Army. When she entered office, all that was there was a desk, telephone and chair. Literally. Despite all her flaws, she would have been the only one to give Pakistan some sort of unity.

Do you have any proof of this? Have you actually lived in Sindh during her time? I have. The goons and theifs of Sindh were in power when she was there. The Sindhi looters decended on Karachi and along side the police staged many raids into people homes and killed or stole from them.

Even though I'm related to her by the marriage of my mom's brother to one of her cousins, her Sindhi tribe is a violent bunch and one of the worst groups I've ever seen. The cousin's little brother was put into jail when Mushraff came along because he was running free after he hacked and chopped his elder brother to gain control of the tribe.

Butto herself was not a saint. She was mired in corruption, she had given a free hand to the Sindhi tribes. Guess what they did? Butto only has power in Sindh is because she gives the tribes free power. Thats the only region the PPP wins always.

@Rome KB8

Every time something happens in Pakistan I get nervous. Nuclear weapons and "Pakistan Taliban winning" do not give me easy thoughts

I'd say the same about Arabs though. Everytime I see someone being blown up in the news it does not give me easy thoughts but thoughts of if they come here.

[white-wolf]

Pakistan needs her Atatürk. To secularize and modernize the country. Her conservative Islamists have been preventing her to be better, among other things.

I think Musarraf did try to be Atatürk of Pakistan. No wonder about that he was at Turkey for 5-6 years at his military education times.

I hear that he will come to Büyükada, Istanbul, Turkey for his exile from Pakistan.

[Каие]

Every time something happens in Pakistan I get nervous. Nuclear weapons and "Pakistan Taliban winning" do not give me easy thoughts.