Halberd militia - what's the point?

[delra]

I've tried those guys out recently and I don't see how this unit is useful in the game.

Okay, they have AP polearm and spear wall formation. They also have almost no armour and no training.

Hand to hand, they lose to every single unit in the game and they usefulness is comparable to the one of peasants.

Spear militia can beat them easily. Mounted sergeants kill them all with two charges. Archers and crossbowmen just decimate them in seconds.

They take a slot for one unit for almost every single Christian nation in the game. They are high-tier and costy while their usefulness is close to zero.

My question is, why do we even keep them? Wouldn't we be better off exchanging them with some sort of a medium sword militia unit (something like Byzantine Infantry (shield wall!))?

EDIT: They were improved a bit in recent RR/RC beta versions. Just edit your game or wait for next RC/RR if you're lazy.

Here are the values:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Bill Militia
dictionary Bill_Militia ; Bill Militia, u
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Janissary_Heavy_Inf, 60, 0, 1.5
officer northern_captain
mount_effect horse +6, camel +6
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 120, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 3, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 11, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 215, 120, 65, 50, 220, 4, 40
armour_ug_levels 1, 2, 3
armour_ug_models Bill_Militia, Bill_Militia_ug1, Bill_Militia_ug2
ownership england
recruit_priority_offset 10


type Heavy Bill Militia
dictionary Heavy_Bill_Militia ; Heavy Bill Militia, u
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Janissary_Heavy_Inf, 60, 0, 1.8
officer northern_captain
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect horse +6, camel +6
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 120, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 7
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 13, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 295, 120, 75, 55, 395, 4, 70
armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 4
armour_ug_models Heavy_Bill_Militia, Heavy_Bill_Militia_ug1
ownership england
recruit_priority_offset 15


type Swordstaff Militia
dictionary Swordstaff_Militia ; Sword Staff Militia, u
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Swordstaff_Militia, 60, 0, 1.8
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, start_phalanxing
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, phalanx, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 3, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 105, 1
stat_pri_attr ap, light_spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 2, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 7
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 13, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 295, 120, 75, 55, 395, 4, 130
armour_ug_levels 4, 4
armour_ug_models Swordstaff_Militia, Swordstaff_Militia_ug1
ownership denmark, norway
era 1 denmark, norway
era 2 denmark, norway
recruit_priority_offset 15


type Partisan Militia
dictionary Partisan_Militia ; Voulge Militia, u
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Voulge_Militia, 60, 0, 1.8
officer northern_captain
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, start_phalanxing
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, phalanx, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 4, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 120, 1
stat_pri_attr ap, light_spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 3, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 12, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 270, 120, 65, 50, 325, 4, 90
armour_ug_levels 2, 3, 4, 4
armour_ug_models Voulge_Militia, Voulge_Militia_ug1, Voulge_Militia_ug2, Voulge_Militia_ug2
ownership france
recruit_priority_offset 15


type Halberd Militia
dictionary Halberd_Militia ; Halberd Militia, u
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Halberd_Militia, 60, 0, 1.5
officer Halberd_Militia_ug1
officer northern_captain_early_flag
officer northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect horse +6, camel +6
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, start_phalanxing
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, phalanx, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 4, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 135, 1
stat_pri_attr ap, light_spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 11, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 215, 120, 65, 50, 220, 4, 70
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3
armour_ug_models Halberd_Militia, Halberd_Militia_ug1, Halberd_Militia_ug2, Halberd_Militia_ug3
ownership hre, papal_states, sicily, poland, hungary, slave
recruit_priority_offset 10

[Fight!]

i dunno i think they're cool in a custom battle(though useless in a campaign), it would be nice if they could do more damage though...

[delra]

Wouldn't you prefer to have a medium swordsmen unit with shield wall which can have so many uses? I'm talking about a 5/15 swords unit like Byzantine Infantry (maybe with shield wall skill which is so funny in tiny streets). This swords unit could:

1. Withstand arrows (tried halberds against Mongols?).

2. Withstand a charge by medium and even heavy cavalries.

3. Would excel killing cheap and medium spearmen AI likes to spam so much.

4. Could go 1 on 1 with any swords unit storming your walls due to defense bonus on those.

5. Would be generally USEFUL FOR SOMETHING EXCEPT DECORATION.

I think I would.

Edit, One more thing. The game classifies Halberds as HEAVY INFANTRY. This is just silly. Heavy infantry is Gothic Knights or at least Feudals, not Halberds who have 3 armour. :-(

[MoToM]

I use units like that as holding pins while my cannon load grapeshot. Most die along with the enemy, but they are easily replaced and last a tiny bit longer than peasants.

[CBCRonin]

Right now, they are most successful as a followup unit for dealing with non-charging cavalry units. Try placing them behind another unit that takes the initial horse charge and then attack with the halberd militia. Unlike the armored professional halberd units, they aren't multi-role capable when fighting alone.


They are more effective in street defense than in the field though.... especially when "mixed in" with a professional melee unit. It doesn't look tidy having two units bunched together, but the long reach of the halberd, added to the attack of a heavily armored unit, works well. It is also good for quickly dealing with any cav. units that try to run through your primary melee troops.

[Fenix_120]

Militia were just that, Militia.


They should not be expected to hold a line against trained battle hardened warriors such as Sergeants or Knights for long.


If you play as Egypt you will notice that they do get a unit like the one you are talking about, I forget their name but their the Mameluk's sons, and the Almohads get their famous Urban militia.

Turkish armies need to be bolstered by castle units, not city.

[Slapa]

yeh i dont mind Halberd militia i think they bring an intresting approach to battle tactics and some are very fine fighters. cheers
slap.

[Inhuman One]

maybe they could be removed, and archer militia could be added instead.

It still bugs me that few factions have archer militia, crossbow militia cant defend a town since they barely fire so they dont serve their main purpose.

[Gorrrrrn]

they existed and replaced billmen in many armies.

perhaps an improvement in their animation or stats might be a better solution to making them useful?

[delra]

Typical western faction. Typical huge city of this faction.

You have *SIX LEVELS OF BARRACKS YOU CAN BUILD THERE*.

You can recruit:

- Spear Militia (basic and useless since mid-game)
- Crossbow Militia (doesn't work at walls)
- Halberd Militia (doesn't win against any unit in the game)

There are no additional units on levels 4, 5 and 6. Just those three all the time.

So again. Why do we have SIX LEVELS of barracks in western cities and why is Halberd Militia the best unit recruitable there?

Now, how about we added at least one decent unit to be recruitable in cities? Like some medium swordsmen one can always find use for? Like Byzantine Infantry?

Let's not add them too early, let's wait till 4th or 5th tier of barracks. But let's at least have SOMETHING there. Something that we can use for stuff other than garrison. Something that is not halberds.

Please. :-)

[Quark]

delra
imo you cannot argue against Halberd units being in the game, they existed and belong to the Pike and Shot era where they were protected by gun units and fended off cavalry (which is their purpose). What you can argue is that the recruitment system needs a revamp, and that a more era like system is required. You can also argue that Halberd units require an armour upgrade path.

imo all buildings should provide a 'bonus' although it does not necassay have to be units, so for instance a higher grade barracks could give higher pool rates and more experienced units.

The issue is off course the fact that we have now reached 30 factions and 500 units, so what do you get rid off :hmmm:. There are far more obvious choices (such as siege equipment) to remove if you need a new sword unit. However I would prefer a combining of some castle and town units, with perhaps towns being 'behind' in some classes, or just by making sure its only the unique units which can come from castles for some factions, only from cities for others.

[Point Blank]

Something to consider, is that by the time that halberd militia are available (and some factions have pike militia as well), more heavily-armored opponents are becoming much more common. Spear militia etc are very out-matched in this case, whereas halberd militia can cause some damage. They will usually also have upgraded armor and are then reasonably capable units, for their cost.

[delra]

I just wish there was at least one useful unit recruitable in those six levels of barracks...

[JaM]

1.) they should be a replacement for Militia Spearmen, so they should be recruitable even in first tier barack.
2.) They should have armor upgrades - at least to heavy mail/partial plate so they can survive on the battlefield
3.)Halberd was a great weapon - it has the killing effect of the Axe and protective effect agaisnt cavalry as spear - perfect combination...

[Lord_Calidor]

Mid-level swordsmen are already included - Light men-at-arms, Light swordsmen, Sergeant swordsmen, Templar sword militia, Prussian Swordsmen and a bunch of others.
On the other hand, Halberd militia is a logical progression of the spear militias. However I agree that their stats and capabilities should be adjusted, perhaps giving them long_spear attribute and 1 more level of armour, to make them more effective in tight city streets, gates and wall breaches, while still being vulnerable in the open field to missiles/flanking.

Overall, I think there are not enough polearms in the late game, so instead of deleting, more pikes/halberds/poleaxes/2H maces should be added.

[delra]

I know that there are already medium swordsmen there. They just aren't recruitable in cities.

Every time I play Moors or Byzantine or even Russian factions, I really enjoy having something useful recruitable in cities.

All those factions have medium infantries available in cities. Why can't Christians?

[JaM]

Spain, Aragon, Portugal and Sicilly has quite usefull Swordsmen militia...

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Maybe you are fighting your city defences wron, Crossbows and halberds are good for city defence.

Put them on the wall like in the drawing (yeah I suck at paint)



The crossbows should be a bit like a square (I just suck at paint so it doesn't look like a square here), and should be against the tower on the left that way when the enemy has ladders against your walls (usually close to the gatehouse) wait till the first man sets foot on the wall and have your crossbows target him, they'll either kill or rout the enemy.

About the gate defence, put your halberdiers in that formations, 3 ranks deep, The best thing is to have 6 units of helberdiers and to put another 3 rank unit directly behind each 3 rank unit the ennemy will lose morale quicker because they are "surounded" as soon as you can get pike militia add them in that formation.

[delra]

France, HRE, Poland, England, Denmark and Norway do not have any sword unit recruitable in cities. (France and HRE have pikemen though which easies the pain).

Denmark and Norway have swordstaff militia which is better armoured than Halberds but still loses half a unit in battle against peasants. England have their Billmen and Heavy Billmen which suffer from the same problems all polearm units suffer in this game but at least have some armour.

Poland has only three units available on 6 levels of barracks, halberds, spear militia and crossbow militia.

I don't want this to become another "Poland is nerfed" thread (although it clearly is the case since Polish recruitment pool in cities is the lowest among all factions).

Instead I'd like to ask for any historical evidence that factions I mentioned earlier (Denmark, Norway, England, HRE, France, Poland) didn't have swordsmen militias in their cities at all.

EDIT: I know how to defend a city, I've played this game for years on VH and won thousands of city battles. It's not about winning though. If I wanted winning I'd use Hospitallers as militia both on walls and at the gate. I just would like to propose an improvement to the rosters of a number of factions so they are more fun to play for everybody. This change would also balance them better against factions who have stronger city pools like Italians, Spaniards or even Russian with they Boyar and Kiev Palace Guard units.

And no, you don't suck at drawing, it's very clear and nice.

EDIT2: I forgot that Denmark has their Clerics science-fiction units available for recruitment in cities (from churches!). This somehow compenstates for lack of swordsmen (just like Boyars do for Kiev and Novgorod). So Denmark leaves the pool.

[August]

Cities do offer some useful troops after Gunpowder invention(and fixed gun animations), but I agree with what you say.