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  1. #1
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Translated (tried to) from Berlingske Tidende

    In Russia the war against Georgia is served as a triumph for the country’s armed forces. But Russian conscripts and analytics tells a different story than the official propaganda.

    The Russian president did not hold back on the pompous rhetoric when he praised the Russian troops’ efforts in the war against Georgia a couple of days ago.
    »The well executed, effective, and peacekeeping operation will stand among the most honorable in the history of the Russian military, « said Dmitrij Medvedev in a speech for some Russian soldiers on a barrack in southern Russia.

    This is how the chorus has sounded on the state controlled television since the war began more than two week ago. The Russian force, who forced the Georgian army on its knees in four days is officially shown as evidence for the superiority of Russian military might, and as another sign of the country’s regained strength.

    »We surpassed them in every possible way, « told a source from the general staff, when he on TV commented Russia’s actions against the inferior Georgian army.

    In the few independent Russian media’s the glorious image of the military has rapidly begun to shatter. Russian journalist has followed in the tracks of the Russian tanks, tells a much less glorified story about the Russian war effort. Despite being denied from the officials, several Russian medias has reported that the generals deployed 18-year-old conscripts, who had no combat training, into battle with the Georgians.

    The Kremlin-critical magazine »Vlast« followed a group of conscripts who were sent into battle without food, water, or medicine. The magazine tells about how the Russian vehicles broke down regularly and how the young Russian conscripts got lost because they didn’t have a decent map over the area they were supposed to attack. According to the magazine they weren’t even informed about being sent into combat.

    »We did not believe that we really would need firearms. We thought it was a peacekeeping operation, « a wounded 18-year-old soldier told the magazine.

    Even in the top of the Russian military staff the basic security procedures seems to lack. In a single embarrassing episode this lack nearly cost the life of the Russian commander in charge of all the military forces in the area, General Anatolij Khrulev.

    Russian journalist where driving with the general into South Ossetia on the second day of the conflict. Of reasons unknown the Russian army’s key person travelled with light, inadequate protection and security. When the column was attacked by Georgian troops, the general was wounded in the leg and had apparently no other means of calling on reinforcements than to borrow a satellite phone from one of the Russian journalist.
    This story was, among others, featured in the news paper »Komsomolskaja Pravda«.

    Even though the Russian forces were victorious over the far smaller Georgian army, Russian analytics have pointed out that the war has exposed a number of weaknesses in the Russian army. The critique thereby brings back memories of Russia’s first war with Chechnya in the mid 1990’s, where the large numbers of civilian and military casualties have been linked to the poor military planning.

    Precision that failed

    Contrary to the war in Chechnya the Russians were rapid in security an overwhelming victory in Georgia by deploying hundreds of tanks and directed ‘precision’ airstrikes. However this came at a great price for both the civilians and the army.

    According to Human Rights Watch at least 11 civilian Georgians where killed during Russia’s »precision bombing« of military installations in the city of Gori. The figure can be higher as numerous civilian flats and buildings where hit in the process. According to the Georgian authorities the total death toll is 213 Georgian civilians and soldiers. Russia is investigating alleged killings of 133 civilians which according to them were done by Georgian forces. Meanwhile 74 Russian soldiers have been reported killed in action.

    The Russians have admitted that they had problems in acquiring precise targets for the Russian bombs.

    »The first reconnaissance was difficult. We will introduce serious reforms on this lesson, « claimed the Russian general Anatolij Nogovitsyn.
    Russia lost 4 bombers and had surprisingly poor intelligence on the Georgian positions.

    If Russia’s goal with the war was to weaken the Georgian president, then the war does not look like a success.

    »Georgian military losses were greater than Russia’s. But financially, politically, and morally Russia has lost far more than Georgia,« writes the commentator, Andrej Illarionov in the paper »Jesjodnjevnyj Sjurnal«.
    Last edited by Holger Danske; August 25, 2008 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    dear god kill me.

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  3. #3
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    This is really getting out of hand. I empathise with Czar.




  4. #4
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    dear god kill me.
    He will get to that part, don't worry...

    And enstead of posting this (not surprisingly) useless crap, why not address the article in an objective manner, if that is even possible for a guy like you...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perkele View Post
    As to Czar, why my friend these accusations seem to come from the 'free press' of Russia...now even those cannot be trusted anymore? Thought so.
    I thought you would have learnt it by now that he doesn't approve anything that puts Russia in a bad light... anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perkele View Post
    As to reconneissance and inteligence, that is a hard job, and the article shows no proof of how exactly the ruskies failed.
    The article never claimed it was an easy job either, it just adress the point that Russia is having this conflict severed as a triumph for their military, while in reality the conflict have just shown that they have trouble with such things as proper reconneissance.. Why they have it beats me as I actually thought they would be pretty capable of this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri Orlov View Post
    Not a fan of Russia.. but in all honesty.. russian conscripts fought and won against a professional army at times when on the ground they mustered less forces and close air support hadn't gotten around yet, the first 2 days of the war......

    this war pointed out that Russias airforce needs new planes and more planes, and more pilot hours... and perhaps new MTBs and helis?? there was a T-62.. dont know if it was ossetian or russian ......
    If you really want to be able to stand up the standards of NATO armies, then you do not send untrained 18-year-old conscripts into battle.. This is not the 20th century (as said so many times before in other contexts)
    Last edited by Holger Danske; August 24, 2008 at 12:28 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    I admit, I ROFL-ed at the part about the Russian general using a satellite telephone. Statements like "surprisingly poor intelligence" make it all-the-more laughable. What, did the Russian recon teams hit the bottle before going on their missions?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    dear god kill me.
    So anything that doesnt show the Russian army to be a glorious tribute to the motherland is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    This is really getting out of hand. I empathise with Czar.
    Its raises sensible points - such as a that a General shouldn't need to use a journalists phone to call for backup or that poorly trained conscripts shouldn't be fighting against a professional army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    did the Russian recon teams hit the bottle before going on their missions?
    Considering that Russia has the highest % of alcoholics in the world it wouldn't surprise me if they had.
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  7. #7
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Its raises sensible points - such as a that a General shouldn't need to use a journalists phone to call for backup or that poorly trained conscripts shouldn't be fighting against a professional army.
    .
    ok, i'll bite. It shows flexibility and adapting to a changing situation. It shows the evolution of a command system and reassertion of latent power.




  8. #8

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    ok, i'll bite. It shows flexibility and adapting to a changing situation. It shows the evolution of a command system and reassertion of latent power.
    I do believe that was a mile or two away from the actual point. Being flexible and being able to adapt come in handy when the normal methods fail. It is a completely another story when the normal methods don't even exist.

    As to Czar, why my friend these accusations seem to come from the 'free press' of Russia...now even those cannot be trusted anymore? Thought so.

    As to reconneissance and inteligence, that is a hard job, and the article shows no proof of how exactly the ruskies failed.

  9. #9
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Perkele View Post
    I do believe that was a mile or two away from the actual point. Being flexible and being able to adapt come in handy when the normal methods fail. It is a completely another story when the normal methods don't even exist.
    fair enough. but that does mean the Rus had untrained conscripts and crappy communications and still won. Imagine if they had actually trained their troops and given them mobile phones? I think that saying the Russian armed forces are crap is a moot point. They still won. And they still scare the crap outta their neighbours and seem to make alot of people on TWC v.v.angry.




  10. #10
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Considering that Russia has the highest % of alcoholics in the world it wouldn't surprise me if they had.
    source?

    In Russia the war against Georgia is served as a triumph for the country’s armed forces. But Russian conscripts and analytics tells a different story than the official propaganda.
    so lets see. the fact that Russians had completely dominated on the battle field and crippled an enemy in a matter of 5 days, the fact that Georgians have over 200 KIA, over 1500 WIA, over 50 MIA (and only 61 dead civilians as collateral damage), suffered huge amount of lost armor, armament and equipment, while Russians suffered 64 KIA and 171 WIA, is of course completely irrelevant for the purposes of estimating "Russian military triumph". screw all the reality.

    lets instead concetrate on reality of Russian army.

    Despite being denied from the officials, several Russian medias has reported that the generals deployed 18-year-old conscripts, who had no combat training, into battle with the Georgians.
    yes, there have been some conscripts among Russian troops, while overwhelming majority of them were professional soldiers. but lets disregard it. lets talk instead about a concript who lost himself in the mountains.

    Even in the top of the Russian military staff the basic security procedures seems to lack. In a single embarrassing episode this lack nearly cost the life of the Russian commander in charge of all the military forces in the area, General Anatolij Khrulev.
    yes, as Russian troops rushed into Tskhinvali, one of the columns was indeed ambushed by Georgian special forces and it is indeed true that a general was wounded in the leg. lets complain about Russia's lack of ability to fight wars.

    Even though the Russian forces were victorious over the far smaller Georgian army, Russian analytics have pointed out that the war has exposed a number of weaknesses in the Russian army. The critique thereby brings back memories of Russia’s first war with Chechnya in the mid 1990’s, where the large numbers of civilian and military casualties have been linked to the poor military planning.
    yes, because clearly the quick and efficient military victory is so much similar to performance of Russian troops in 1994.

    The Russians have admitted that they had problems in acquiring precise targets for the Russian bombs.
    and this of course means that the entire army had no idea what they are doing, and so is the airforce. they all were disorganizingly and chaotically killing Georgians and sporadically delivering bombing raids agaisnt Georgian military targets deep into Georgian territories, while the glorious Georgian troops were fighting with a great skill and strategically retreated to ther capital. baghdad bob is proud.

    »Georgian military losses were greater than Russia’s. But financially, politically, and morally Russia has lost far more than Georgia,« writes the commentator, Andrej Illarionov in the paper »Jesjodnjevnyj Sjurnal«.
    this is surely news to everybody esle but Andrey Illarionov.
    Last edited by Panzerbear; August 24, 2008 at 12:49 PM.

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    suffered huge amount of lost armor, armament and equipment, while
    Most of which were abandoned on the road from Gori to Tbilsi. 6 Georgian armored vehicles were lost due to combat in South Ossetia.

    This low intensity conflict can hardly even be called a war. The Georgians pulled out once Russian air support started coming in, as they had no effective means in fighting it. Casualties on both sides were low.

    Anyone who thinks that Russian conscripts are badly trained really needs to see some videos of the actual trainings.
    You mean jumping trough rings of fire and breaking bricks with their fists? Such training is more fit for circus artists, not soldiers.
    Last edited by Norge; August 24, 2008 at 07:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Norge View Post
    Most of which were abandoned on the road from Gori to Tbilsi. 6 Georgian armored vehicles were lost due to combat in South Ossetia.
    when you run away from your tanks and then come back later just to realize they are gone, you LOST them at any rate. just like you lose your rifle if you throw it away and run for your life, and the enemy picks it up.

    Casualties on both sides were low.
    so, two hundred dead soliders and a 1.5 thousand wounded is now considered "low casualties" for 5 days? what year is it, 1942 ?

    You mean jumping trough rings of fire and breaking bricks with their fists?
    I am afraid Russian conscripts do none of these .
    oh wait, now that I think of it, doesnt Norway have conscription as well?

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    So anything that doesnt show the Russian army to be a glorious tribute to the motherland is wrong?
    Dude, this was just one of Holger's many trolling raids. He quickly strikes at pro-Russian people, ignore their response, and then strike again with new propoganda. This was purely rubbish.

    Its raises sensible points - such as a that a General shouldn't need to use a journalists phone to call for backup
    Sometimes lacks occur. I heard the CIA trusts the national media more then their own intellegence for

    or that poorly trained conscripts shouldn't be fighting against a professional army.
    Elrond, you are a troll.
    1. Those 'poorly trained' conscripts were 'apperantly' better equipped & trained then their Georgian counterpart. They ed the Georgian army upp, even when they were facing huge odds.
    2. Russian army is highly proffesional (even though many of them were conscripts). Their training is top quality, their equipment is generally of good standards and they behaved profesionally (that will say not beating the living out of POW's).



    Considering that Russia has the highest % of alcoholics in the world it wouldn't surprise me if they had.
    I heard Britain was Europe's fattest country?


    PS. Holger Danske, don't you miss the time when Denmark was a very frendly to Russia?
    The great relationship lasted for nearly 400 years. You really shouldn't be bashing the Russians with clearly BS articles like these.

    And why do you hate Russians so much? Are you like Norge? Who want every Russian dead?
    Last edited by Nikitn; August 24, 2008 at 02:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post

    I heard Britain was Europe's fattest country?
    we're not fat. we're just big boned.




  15. #15

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    So anything that doesnt show the Russian army to be a glorious tribute to the motherland is wrong?
    Looks like you get the mentality.

  16. #16
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    I admit, I ROFL-ed at the part about the Russian general using a satellite telephone. Statements like "surprisingly poor intelligence" make it all-the-more laughable. What, did the Russian recon teams hit the bottle before going on their missions?
    i believe there was infact footage of russian troops intoxicated during the report of a CNN journalist?

    here's some more articles on the military match ups during the conflict:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/4277747.html

    cyber attacks:

    http://www.defensetech.org/archives/....html#comments

    georgian air defence:

    http://www.defensetech.org/archives/....html#comments

    another match up:

    http://www.defensetech.org/archives/....html#comments
    Last edited by Carach; August 25, 2008 at 11:57 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Not a fan of Russia.. but in all honesty.. russian conscripts fought and won against a professional army at times when on the ground they mustered less forces and close air support hadn't gotten around yet, the first 2 days of the war......

    this war pointed out that Russias airforce needs new planes and more planes, and more pilot hours... and perhaps new MTBs and helis?? there was a T-62.. dont know if it was ossetian or russian ......

  18. #18
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri Orlov View Post
    Not a fan of Russia.. but in all honesty.. russian conscripts fought and won against a professional army at times when on the ground they mustered less forces and close air support hadn't gotten around yet, the first 2 days of the war......

    this war pointed out that Russias airforce needs new planes and more planes, and more pilot hours... and perhaps new MTBs and helis?? there was a T-62.. dont know if it was ossetian or russian ......
    Yuri's right. The Brits learnt from the Dieppe Raid, The Wehrmacht from Poland and The US from Kasserine Pass. The Russians no doubt have learnt from Georgia. But they also won.




  19. #19

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    Contrary to the war in Chechnya the Russians were rapid in security an overwhelming victory in Georgia by deploying hundreds of tanks and directed ‘precision’ airstrikes. However this came at a great price for both the civilians and the army.

    According to Human Rights Watch at least 11 civilian Georgians where killed during Russia’s »precision bombing« of military installations in the city of Gori.
    wow 11 ...
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Russia’s military triumph was overstated

    If you really want to be able to stand up the standards of NATO armies, then you do not send untrained 18-year-old conscripts into battle.. This is not the 20th century (as said so many times before in other contexts
    The Norwegian army is made up of mostly 19 and 20 year old conscripts should we be invaded by "da motherland" so.... the world hasn't changed that much.... altough we lack MTBs and IFVs....... and they are going to chose the JSF over Grippen, witch is dumb, since the sukhois would destroy us, unless we have grippens.....

    why is you all hating drunks?
    Last edited by Yuri Orlov; August 24, 2008 at 12:34 PM.

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