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  1. #1
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    Default McCain lies and flip flops

    Okay, so here we go. I'm not sure whether this belongs in the presidential general election thread, but nevertheless, let's debate the "republican maverick".


    McCain flip flops
    1. McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.

    2. McCain insisted that everyone, even “terrible killers,” “the worst kind of scum of humanity,” and detainees at Guantanamo Bay, “deserve to have some adjudication of their cases,” even if that means “releasing some of them.” McCain now believes the opposite.

    3. He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”

    4. In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.

    5. McCain was for closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay before he was against it.

    6. When Barack Obama talked about going after terrorists in Pakistani mountains with predators, McCain criticized him for it. He’s since come to the opposite conclusion.

    Foreign Policy

    7. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it. Now, he’s for it again.

    8. McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.

    9. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.

    10. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.

    11. McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision.

    12. McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.

    13. McCain was against divestment from South Africa before he was for it.

    Military Policy

    14. McCain recently claimed that he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”

    15. McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good and a bad idea.

    16. McCain was against additional U.S. forces in Afghanistan before he was for it.

    17. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.”

    18. McCain has repeatedly said it’s a dangerous mistake to tell the “enemy” when U.S. troops would be out of Iraq. In May, McCain announced that most American troops would be home from Iraq by 2013.

    19. McCain was against expanding the GI Bill before he was for it.

    20. McCain staunchly opposed Obama’s Iraq withdrawal timetable, and even blasted Mitt Romney for having referenced the word during the GOP primaries. In July, after Iraqi officials endorsed Obama’s policy, McCain said a 16-month calendar sounds like “a pretty good timetable.”

    Domestic Policy

    21. McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)

    22. On Social Security, McCain said he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Soon after, asked about a possible increase in the payroll tax, McCain said there’s “nothing that’s off the table.”

    23. McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.

    24. McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.

    25. He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.

    26. In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.

    27. McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.

    28. McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be “rewarded” for acting “irresponsibly.” His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.

    29. McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.

    30. McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.

    31. McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

    32. McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

    33. In 2005, McCain endorsed intelligent design creationism, a year later he said the opposite, and a few months after that, he was both for and against creationism at the same time.

    34. And on gay adoption, McCain initially said he’d rather let orphans go without families, then his campaign reversed course, and soon after, McCain reversed back.

    35. In the Senate, McCain opposed a variety of measures on equal pay for women, and endorsed the Supreme Court’s Ledbetter decision. In July, however, McCain said, “I’m committed to making sure that there’s equal pay for equal work. That … is my record and you can count on it.”

    36. McCain was against fully funding the No Child Left Behind Act before he was for it.

    37. McCain was for affirmative action before he was against it.

    Economic Policy

    38. McCain was against Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy before he was for them.

    39. John McCain initially argued that economics is not an area of expertise for him, saying, “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues; I still need to be educated,” and “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” He now falsely denies ever having made these remarks and insists that he has a “very strong” understanding of economics.

    40. McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal. And soon after that, McCain abandoned his second position and went back to his first.

    41. McCain said in 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were “too tilted to the wealthy.” By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and falsely argued that he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.

    42. McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.

    43. McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a “‘read my lips’ candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?” referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. “No new taxes,” McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, “I’m not making a ‘read my lips’ statement, in that I will not raise taxes.”

    44. McCain has changed his entire economic worldview on multiple occasions.

    45. McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off economically than they were before Bush took office.

    Energy Policy

    46. McCain supported the moratorium on coastal drilling ; now he’s against it.

    47. McCain recently announced his strong opposition to a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.

    48. McCain endorsed a cap-and-trade policy with a mandatory emissions cap. In mid-June, McCain announced he wants the caps to voluntary.

    49. McCain explained his belief that a temporary suspension of the federal gas tax would provide an immediate economic stimulus. Shortly thereafter, he argued the exact opposite.

    50. McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.

    51. McCain was for national auto emissions standards before he was against them.

    Immigration Policy

    52. McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. In 2007, he announced his opposition to the bill. In 2008, McCain switched back.

    53. On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own bill.

    54. In April, McCain promised voters that he would secure the borders “before proceeding to other reform measures.” Two months later, he abandoned his public pledge, pretended that he’d never made the promise in the first place, and vowed that a comprehensive immigration reform policy has always been, and would always be, his “top priority.”

    Judicial Policy and the Rule of Law

    55. McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.

    56. McCain’s position was that the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.

    57. McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.

    58 In June, McCain rejected the idea of a trial for Osama bin Laden, and thought Obama’s reference to Nuremberg was a misread of history. A month later, McCain argued the exact opposite position.

    Campaign, Ethics, and Lobbying Reform

    59. McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.

    60. In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.

    61. McCain supported a campaign-finance bill, which bore his name, on strengthening the public-financing system. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.

    62. In May 2008, McCain approved a ban on lobbyists working for his campaign. In July 2008, his campaign reversed course and said lobbyists could work for his campaign.

    Politics and Associations

    63. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist John Hagee. Now he doesn’t. (He also believes his endorsement from Hagee was both a good and bad idea.)

    64. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.

    65. McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.

    66. McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.

    67. McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks.

    68. In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

    69. McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

    70. McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he “would taint the image of the ‘Straight Talk Express.’” Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York.

    71. McCain believed powerful right-wing activist/lobbyist Grover Norquist was “corrupt, a shill for dictators, and (with just a dose of sarcasm) Jack Abramoff’s gay lover.” McCain now considers Norquist a key political ally.

    72. McCain was for presidential candidates giving speeches in foreign countries before he was against it.
    McCain lies.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vGFdf_Vm0Yo
    http://www.lies.com/wp/2008/05/30/mc...n-the-details/
    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/06/mccain-earmark/
    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...880/710/545421

    McCain's vagueness and avoidance of issues, I think, seems to indicate that he's ignorant of economics (supported by his own admission) and policies. How come this lying GOP rabblerouser gets an automatic and axiomatic free pass on the issue of integrity? Because he was a POW? Because he's a veteran?

    also, it seems Obama has a better record in being pro-vet. I bet you don't hear that often.

    Debate. I want some partisan mudslinging, here, in the mudpit.
    Last edited by Princeps; August 23, 2008 at 03:55 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Normally i dont comment political posts, but cant help myself - I read today that Obamas brother lives in Nairobi in a smallroom (2x3m) and earns 1USD a week... His rich brother dont care...

    that says something about a human... i would never allowed something like that to my family...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Normally i dont comment political posts, but cant help myself - I read today that Obamas brother lives in Nairobi in a smallroom (2x3m) and earns 1USD a week... His rich brother dont care...
    His half brother. Obama has, iirc, a lot of family in Africa. As far as we know, perhaps he didn't even know his brother existed. I know people who have lived few cities away from their half brothers and cousins but have never met them, let alone the ones half a world away.

  4. #4
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    His half brother.
    Correction:
    Somebody who claims to be Obama's half brother, AFAIK nobody has confirmed it yet and it's very possible it's just a bum who happens to have the same last name and tries to get some money out of it.

    But what's the use - 80% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, just because they 'read' it somewhere....



  5. #5
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Correction:
    Somebody who claims to be Obama's half brother, AFAIK nobody has confirmed it yet and it's very possible it's just a bum who happens to have the same last name and tries to get some money out of it.


    Yeah, that consideration should not be ignored.

  6. #6
    Guderian's Duck's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    "Flip-flopping" can also mean that he has learned new facts on these subjects and has formed a new opinion. An intelligent man will change his opinions based on new evidence.
    The Jagdpanzer IV was a tank destroyer developed against the wishes of Heinz Guderian. Its large gun and heavy frontal armor led to poor mobility and made them difficult to operate in rough terrain, leading their crews to nickname them Guderian Ente; Guderian's Duck.

  7. #7

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    But what's the use - 80% of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, just because they 'read' it somewhere....
    whats changes if obama is a muslim? does that make him a less probable candidate because of it? do his policies change? the answer to all of these should be: no. a very clear, definite no
    --- Theseus1234
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    I have to say the Old McCain was better, this new one, has forsaken his principles for the sake of Power. Mind you so has Obama.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Mind you so has Obama.
    Not really. One of the things that impresses me is that he has remained relatively consistent.

    Although there are those flip flops he has also made.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    Not really. One of the things that impresses me is that he has remained relatively consistent.
    Not at all, i was following Obama since before he ran for President, his campaign has changed considerably. McCains more so....but still flip flopping is a part of the process.

  11. #11

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8
    Mind you so has Obama.
    Not really. One of the things that impresses me is that he has remained relatively consistent.

    Although there are those flip flops he has also made.


    How can he flip flop he hasn't really taken a stance on anything. All I see, is him talking about "change" but he has yet to say what exactly he is going to change and what he is going to change it into.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick1191 View Post
    How can he flip flop he hasn't really taken a stance on anything. All I see, is him talking about "change" but he has yet to say what exactly he is going to change and what he is going to change it into.
    Maybe you should take the time and read his policies.

    Oh, and let's not forget his Russia position.
    How has he flip flopped on Russia?

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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick1191 View Post
    How can he flip flop he hasn't really taken a stance on anything. All I see, is him talking about "change" but he has yet to say what exactly he is going to change and what he is going to change it into.
    That argument is getting old.

    http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/
    http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/

  14. #14

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    Although there are those flip flops he has also made.
    Indeed.

    "I just ask you to consider the common thread underlying all of these turnarounds (though just a partial list):
    a) his condemnation of union contributions to the Clinton and Edwards campaigns as "special interest money" but his eager acceptance of such money for himself as coming from representatives of the "working people";
    b) his flip on ending (January 2004) then retaining (August 2007) the Cuba embargo;
    c) his March 2004 statement that opposed a crackdown on businesses hiring illegal immigrants, compared with his Jan. 31, 2008, debate statement endorsing such a crackdown;
    d) his advocating the decriminalization of marijuana in January 2004 versus his Oct. 30, 2007, position opposing its decriminalization;
    e) his jaw-dropping same-day flip on having Jerusalem remain the undivided capital of Israel;
    f) his shameless reversal on NAFTA;
    g) his nearly immediate backtracking on whether Iran poses a serious threat to America;
    h) his progressive position shifts on Iraq — as documented by Peter Wehner and Michael Barone — from "don't go in, stay in, and get out";
    i) and his vigorous defense then abandonment of both his pastor and his church. "


    -http://www.newsmax.com/limbaugh/barack_obama/2008/06/24/107086.html

    Oh, and let's not forget his Russia position.
    Last edited by MyNameIsGreat; August 23, 2008 at 04:56 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    e) his jaw-dropping same-day flip on having Jerusalem remain the undivided capital of Israel;
    Well, ok. So he took a more principled stand. East jerusalem is the center of Palestinian economic activity, so I do appreciate his shift to a negotiation over Jerusalem's status more than I dislike his flip flop. Any one should.

    f) his shameless reversal on NAFTA;
    Rumours. For all I know, he hasn't admitted to any flip flop.

    Again, still far better than McCain.
    Last edited by Princeps; August 23, 2008 at 05:01 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Hmm...where is this "this post was paid for by Obama/Biden for President '08" notice?

  17. #17

    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Well I'd like to know why Obama has been so lazy here when compared to McCain. What's his excuse.

  18. #18
    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Quote Originally Posted by whhyy View Post
    Well I'd like to know why Obama has been so lazy here when compared to McCain. What's his excuse.
    Obama is a young, first term Senator who has spent much of his first term campaigning for President. It's hard to accomplish a lot in terms of legislation when you are out of the office campaigning, I suppose.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Also, McCain's pastor problems.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4qNi7tPanUA

    It seems McCain has no qualms with taking endorsement from such a dangerous demagogue.

  20. #20
    Cavalier's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: McCain lies and flip flops

    Seems to me that McCain is getting senile by old age.
    August Strindberg: "There's a view, current at the moment even among quite sensible people, that women, that secondary form of humanity (second to men, the lords and shapers of human civilisation) should in some way become equal with men, or could so be; this is leading to a struggle which is both bizarre and doomed. It's bizarre because a secondary form, by the laws of science, is always going to be a secondary form. Imagine two people, A (a man) and B (a woman). They start to run a race from the same point, C. A (the man) has a speed of, let's say, 100; B (the woman) has a speed of 60. Now, the question is 'Can B ever overtake A?" and the answer is 'Never!'. Whatever training, encouragement or self-denial is applied, the proposition is as impossible as that two parallel lines should ever meet."


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