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  1. #1
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Moscow plans to set up 18 checkpoints, some in Georgia proper, a Kremlin official says. The plan appears to violate the terms of a cease-fire.
    By Sergei L. Loiko and Borzou Daragahi, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
    August 21, 2008
    MOSCOW -- Russia plans to establish a long-term presence in Georgia and one of its breakaway republics by adding 18 checkpoints, including at least eight within undisputed Georgian territory outside the pro-Russian enclave of South Ossetia, a ranking Russian military official told reporters Wednesday.

    The checkpoints will be staffed by hundreds of Russian troops, the official said, and those within Georgia proper will have supplies ferried to them from breakaway South Ossetia.
    If implemented, the plan would in effect put under Russian control the border between Georgia and the South Ossetia region, which is seeking independence, as well as a small chunk of Georgia proper.

    "This is the essence of it," Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the army general staff, told reporters at a briefing. He showed maps detailing the proposed Russian positions, one just outside the Georgian city of Gori, which lies along a crucial juncture of the country's main east-west highway.

    "The president ordered us to stop where we were," he said. "We are not pulling out and pulling back troops behind this administrative border into the territory of South Ossetia."


    The plans appear to violate the terms of a French-endorsed cease-fire deal signed late last week by the presidents of Georgia and Russia. It called for both country's troops and allied armed groups to move back to their positions held before hostilities between the two countries' troops led to a Russian military incursion early this month into the staunchly pro-U.S. Caucasus Mountains nation.

    Russian officials say the deal allows them to keep troops along the South Ossetia-Georgia border as well as within Georgia proper as part of a peacekeeping mission begun in the 1990s. The Russians say their peacekeeping mandate gives them access to a "security zone" along the border.

    At the United Nations, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin on Wednesday circulated a draft resolution calling for the Security Council's endorsement of the cease-fire plan that had been promoted last week by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

    U.S. Deputy U.N. Ambassador Alejandro Wolff made it clear that Washington opposed the Russian initiative. He said it is "designed to rubber-stamp a Russian interpretation" of the cease-fire that the West rejects.

    Western envoys at the U.N. supported a French draft resolution Monday calling for immediate Russian withdrawal from Georgia. But Russia, which wields a Security Council veto, blocked it. The 15-member council did not debate the rival Russian draft.

    Relations between the West and Moscow have plummeted to their lowest depths since the end of the Cold War, prompting fear that an economically invigorated Russia would strive to reestablish authority over what it views as its centuries-old sphere of influence, including Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Top diplomats of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization members said they would reconsider their relations with Moscow in light of its incursion into Georgia.

    In this month's fighting, at least 64 Russian soldiers were killed and 323 injured, Nogovitsyn said. Russians were outraged by what they called an unprovoked surprise attack by Georgians on Russian peacekeepers based in South Ossetia, as well as civilians in the breakaway region. Georgians have accused Moscow of provoking the fight as a pretext for sending troops into Georgian territory.

    Officials in Georgia, the U.S. and European nations have demanded that Russia pull its troops back to positions held before the fighting broke out Aug. 7.

    President Bush reiterated that message Wednesday during a speech at the Veterans of Foreign Wars national convention in Orlando, Fla., and defended Georgia's claim to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another pro-Moscow breakaway region.

    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Wednesday that the presence of Russia's forces is "now having an effect" on Georgia's neighbors, Armenia and Azerbaijan, by making imports and exports difficult. She said Armenia is beginning to see shortages.

    Rice said that as of midafternoon, U.S. officials had seen no signs of a Russian retreat from Georgia. Another U.S. official said some movement suggested that some military units might be pulling back.

    In Moscow, Nogovitsyn said "time will tell" when Russians would pull troops out of areas they control in Georgia proper, including the key city of Gori. He called the proposed new checkpoints "observation posts."

    Georgian officials voiced outrage over the continued Russian presence. The Georgian Foreign Ministry announced Wednesday that Russians had set up a new position along the highway between the Black Sea port city of Poti and Abkhazia.

    "Over the last seven days they've promised three times to leave, but they've yet to fulfill their promises," said Alexander Lomaia, Georgia's national security advisor, during an interview in downtown Gori.

    "We're here and we haven't seen any sign of them pulling out," he said. "There is the same number of checkpoints and the same severe rules for entering and exiting."

    The U.S. military flew in five loads of relief supplies, news agencies reported. It is also attempting to dispatch several military vessels from the Mediterranean to Georgia's Black Sea coast with additional aid.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3420647.story

    Umm...

    So much for the ceasefire.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  2. #2

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    I would like to say what I think of them, but I fear I may be banned from the forums, so I will simply say...

    Typical pro-Soviet maneuver

  3. #3
    Andrew87's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    What a surpise!!! ( not )

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    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    I suppose from a military viewpoint, It would make sense for the russians to establish a buffer zone. No more surprise attacks. regards magpie.

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    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    german news say that 8 checkpoints will remain and even though the russians will leave soldiers (which is offensive) the reinforcemet left and therefore the ceasefire conditions are met.
    http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/kau...nflikt108.html

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    german news say that 8 checkpoints will remain and even though the russians will leave soldiers (which is offensive) the reinforcemet left and therefore the ceasefire conditions are met.
    ...

    The ceasefire conditions is all forces return to their pre-war positions. The Russians were not in Gori before the war.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  7. #7

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    ...

    The ceasefire conditions is all forces return to their pre-war positions. The Russians were not in Gori before the war.
    Wasn't their deadline today anyways? Typically, they unjustifiably breached the agreement...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Wonder how long before Georgians resort to "insurgent" type of attacks on the Russians if they actually try and pull this off. Of course we westerns appear more then willing to just let this go.

  9. #9
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Wonder how long before Georgians resort to "insurgent" type of attacks on the Russians if they actually try and pull this off. Of course we westerns appear more then willing to just let this go.
    it better be insurgents and not special forces. that would violate the ceasfireconditions

  10. #10

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    ...

    The ceasefire conditions is all forces return to their pre-war positions. The Russians were not in Gori before the war.
    Nah, the ceasefire allowed some Russian troops to be patrolling Georgia proper .

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse helvetica View Post
    theoretically nice, but practically
    1) russian "peackeepers" did not stop SO milita raids, I mean, before war broke out.
    Umm, yes they did. It weren't the South Ossetians who constantly shelled cities, and doing raids.

    Besides, there were Georgian, Russian & South Ossetian peacekeepers there.

    2) Russia is not interested of independent Abkhasia, a la Kosovo: so they would admit that what happened in Kosovo was right. Abkhasians are not worth of losing "Kosovo card".
    Actually, there is a difference. Abkhazia never was a part of Georgia.
    They had a big right of independendence from the Soviet Union, just like Georgia.

    3) only satisfactory solution is international peackeepers but russia, of course, do not want those. They want actually control areas via their own "peacekeeping".
    The South Ossetians don't want international peacekeepers at all. They are extremly content with Russian peacekeeping.

    But yes, you are right. Russia does want to keep it's influence.

    4) problem is, like it or not, every deal there has to be agreed by Russia, so no way for "neutral" solutions.
    Yeah, let's ignore the Russian & Georgian opinion on this matter, let's go 'neutral' US style.
    Last edited by Nikitn; August 23, 2008 at 02:35 PM.

  11. #11
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    russian buggers just interpret the ceasefire conditions differently. hehe. they only leave a little peace corps *grin*

  12. #12

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Surprise

  13. #13
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    ****ing Russians.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    From my observations I think the generals have more control in Russia than the president....
    "I may not be there yet, but I'm closer than I was yesterday"

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    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by lord o kelly View Post
    From my observations I think the generals have more control in Russia than the president....
    well that an putin, i bet he still has leverage on the presidents will.
    russia needs to relax a bit, you need another gorbatschow i liked that dude

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    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    well that an putin, i bet he still has leverage on the presidents will.
    russia needs to relax a bit, you need another gorbatschow i liked that dude
    Yep. While Gorbi was the right man at the right time to disarm and dismantle the Cold War (on the Russian side) he is needed more now than ever before...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    well that an putin, i bet he still has leverage on the presidents will.
    russia needs to relax a bit, you need another gorbatschow i liked that dude
    I remember before Putin was replaced(if that's what you want to call it), they said something about even Russian billionaires feared his power, that he was probably the most feared man in Russia by his political power, not necessarily his position. It really does not surprise me that he would not make Medvedev a puppet...

  18. #18
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury View Post
    It really does not surprise me that he would not make Medvedev a puppet...
    except that he would not . you give Putin way too much credit. now he runs around all over the country and does what Medvedev tells him to do. that being said, he was a Russian president for 8 years. Medvedev was a president for barely 1/3 of a year. clearly Putin is by far more experienced to run the cuntry, so this experience shows. but over time Medvedev will mature into a stellar president. just give him a year or two.
    Last edited by Panzerbear; August 23, 2008 at 09:45 AM.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    I think the obvious solution would be to have Russian troops pull back to the breakaway regions, not accede the 3000 man limit and for international peace keepers (ie ones not from the region) to be given a UN mandate to police the borders - ie like Cyprus - the UN force there has separated both sides for 34 years.

    Russian troops staying outside the buffer zone is only going to antagonize the US government who will be deciding about now what help to give to the Georgians in the long term. Trying to have a Syria in Lebanon style military presence in the area is just going to damage Russia's reputation further.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Russian General states Russia will not pull out of Georgia...

    The Russians need to get out while the going is good. I don't think any military on earth has as much experience with the latest insurgent tactics and weapons as the US. A few advisers here, a little equipment on the "humanitarian" planes there and all of a sudden Russian vehicles start going boom.

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