Are gunpowder units useless?

[Vasquez]

I have no luck with these guys. They get maybe one or two hopelessly ineffective volleys off, they break and run and then get toasted by cavalry! They can't function as skirmishers to save their lives.

The only success at keeping them alive for the next battle is to literally place them directly in front of my pikes, so they have some cover when the donkey wallopers come a chargin.

Anybody else noticed that they are completely borked when in skirmish mode and open order? They refuse to fire or form up sensibly? They kinda stand around like they OD'd on Prozac or something? Arquebusiers specifically but there may be others?

[Musthavename]

I've found with Pikes they work relatively well. You can use them to pick off any heavy infantry units or otherwise elite units the enemy has before they get to your own lines. Any cavalry that charge can then be obliterated by the pikemen I have. I never leave them on skirmish though, always move them myself. The key point is to not treat them like you would Crossbows or Archers, or even as you would Javelinmen. Also, if you can get them around the flanks and allow them to fully open up they do a lot of damage.

[dopp]

You should have seen them in the first MTW... they had 3% base accuracy and range just slightly better than javelins...

[Vasquez]

Say how many ranks do you normally try to form up in? I stretch em right out into two ranks to maximize firepower, but I still think they are ineffective, and I have dicked around alot with their weapon stats trying to get em to be more effective. They really are a lot of work for what they do.

EDIT: What's the accuracy stat? Where do I find it?

[Musthavename]

Stretch them out as far as I can. Pikes in lines of three (thickness) behind. I've done several custom battles with Musketeers in particular and they seem to fire just fine. I'm not saying Musketeers are superior to archers, i'd take Retinue Longbowmen over them anyday, but they're a deadly unit if used right. They're more of a "take these units out", sniper unit than a mass killing machine, as they only have a small window in the battle where they're any use.

[dopp]

Two or three ranks is best. You really need to get the improved musket animations pack for them to fire properly.

The descr_projectile is what you need, open it and do a search for 'bullet'. Edit accuracy_vs_units entry, lower number is better.

Range is in the unit entry in EDB, as is attack power and the AP attribute. Some people give them BP (body piercing) based on accounts of musket balls killing several men in a row. I don't.

One other thing to note is that guns do additional morale damage that helps break up charges. Unfortunately morale values in SS 6.1 and RR (although RR merely copies the values from somewhere else) are sky-high and virtually every unit including militia has 'good' or 'excellent' morale, making guns even less effective.

[Vasquez]

Whoa whoa! What? There is an improved musket pack out there? Where is that? The sub mods thread?

[dopp]

The AOR lategame addon by Banzai I think, just download the animations pack. He converted the animations so the gunners would all fire at once and then reload, speeding up the firing time.

I suppose you could also give them the ability to lay stakes, since the first gunners used field fortifications a lot like the longbowmen.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

The descr_projectile is what you need, open it and do a search for 'bullet'. Edit accuracy_vs_units entry, lower number is better.

Doesn't that make them less acurate?


Can you post a link to the animations pack

EDIt: ok I changed every musket and aquebus unit, the spannish and Russians have the best gun men

I've increased range for all and added body piercing, I've also increased attack for some.

I'll check if this changes the effectiveness. And I gave Jannissary musketeers, cossack musketeers and arquebusiers the abillity to deploy stakes

Would you happen to know what I need to edit to make them shoot from walls?

I'll be back to let you know if they are as tough as they should be now

[Wolfgrin]

I didn't care much for gunpowder in this game UNTIL a single, decimated unit of handgunners saved one of my cities. After being run off the walls and overrun at the gate, I had very few combat effective units that made it back to my town center, in fact, only my general, a fairly ragged bunch of spear militia AND about 70 handgunners. As each enemy unit entered my square, a volley from the gunners broke them, they ran and my general cut them down. This happened time and time again, until the enemy totally broke and I won the day. Now I field two arquebusier units, one on either flank, with my late armies. By half way through a battle, they are scaring the crap out of just about every approaching enemy unit. It's rather lovely.

I checked Undecided, though, because they are not as effective as they should be. Also, ALL skirmish units seem to run far too late and slowly.

[obbob]

handgunners and their ilk...i find are really useless.

Field Artillery, on the other hand....
Rocket Launchers, Serpentines, Basilisks, what more could you want?

[OTZ]

jeebus...I rarely make it too far into the gunpowder age. I usually start over well before the game time actually ends.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

I did a test on a bridge battle, This was pure to see how effective bullets are now, so I Fought the scots whom I gave an army of pikemen. I had Cossack gunners and strezcly mostly.
This was the result:


Now I know I had everything going for the gunners, and in a real battle against a real army they'd do a lot worse. But still It's a little better right now

(my own casualties where from friendly fire)


EDIT: I did a search for that AOR late game add on but can't find it.

[Vasquez]

Here it is!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=175571

Oh CRAP I can't use it. It's gonna overwrite my heavily customized EDU file. Damn.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Thank you, plus rep.

[Vasquez]

Never mind I'm an idiot. He has all the links to the different files in his first hidey, not the animations hidey.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

What do you mean?

I'm confused

'm an idiot! you mean in the spoiler tags!

found it!

+ rep again!

[Vasquez]

Hey thanks dude! I still can't use it because of the EDU issue. Blast it.

Stretch them out as far as I can. Pikes in lines of three (thickness) behind. I've done several custom battles with Musketeers in particular and they seem to fire just fine. I'm not saying Musketeers are superior to archers, i'd take Retinue Longbowmen over them anyday, but they're a deadly unit if used right. They're more of a "take these units out", sniper unit than a mass killing machine, as they only have a small window in the battle where they're any use.

That's an interesting corollary....

[sabaku_no_gaara]

yeah, I'm going to have to redo my changes in the description buildings file and units file.

can't rep you untill I spread the rep around a bit)

[Vasquez]

I didn't think you could, just didn't want to mention it