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Thread: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

  1. #1

    Icon3 Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Ok so this technically isn't 1700 to 1800 but I think it's an important event that also had quite an effect on Britain's thinking. I'm talking about the Dutch raid on Medway and the Chatham naval docks in 1667, which at the time was where Charles had the British fleet laid up and is considered by many historians as Britain's greatest naval defeat.

    It seems to be a largely ignored piece of history but the fact is the Dutch navy was able to sail down the river Medway and the Thames estuary largely unchallenged over the course of several days and lay waste to a better part of the British fleet.

    Despite pre-warnings from english spies in the Dutch court, and warnings from fleeing merchant ships and warnings from Chathams warden the British government and the Admiralty failed to react in time to organise an effective defense.

    The Dutch wanted to shame the English by taking the battle home to them after the attrocities commited by the brits during 1666 during several engagements and therefore decided to raid the British fleet at Chatham. The Dutch fleet of around 90 ships sailed down to chatham and engaged around the 10th of June and in the course of the attack burnt 3 British capital ships, sunk a futher 10 lesser ships and towed off Unity a previous prize ship captured from the Dutch and the Royal Charles, the actual Flagship of the Royal Navy!!

    To really rub salt into the wound the Naval command element in fear of a direct attack on London deliberately sunk around 30 of their own ships in attempt to stop the Dutch getting further up despite being told otherwise, some of which carried around 70 guns!

    Furthermore the new fort under construction at Sherness to first abandoned by the token scottish force defending and was then captured by Dutch marines (Kudos for developing the first trained marine force) followed up by the fact most of the crews that should of been manning the fleet had buggered off because they hadn't been paid, in some cases for years, an example would be of 800 men expected to arrive at the dock only about 12 turned up in an utter state of panic and of 30 sloops pulled in for the defence only 10 actually turned up and only 2 senior naval officials were actually present.

    Naturally this lead to the mother of all screw ups by the Royal Navy and had a massive effect on the running of the navy. It was estimated damage to the dock was around £20,000 (old money) and the damage to the fleet £200,000 not including the cost to repair and rebuild the four lost capital ships. It also meant that for several years the Dutch had the most powerful fleet in the world until Charles brought in a new shipbuilding program at the Chatham docks in 1670 to rebuild the fleet and generaly reinforce all areas of the navy...

    Also some small intriuging points about the Chatham docks for anyone interested...

    1588 - Battle of Gravelines - Armada finally scattered, damaged ships return to Chatham docks for repair.

    1667 - Dutch raid Medway, Chatham records show British casaulties at 8 sunk, 7 burned and 2 captured for no Dutch losses

    1685 - Chatham docks are Modernised with the construction of 2 Drydocks and 21 storehouses.

    1688-70 - Shipbuilding program brought in which confirms hatham dock as the PREMIER dock for ship construction.

    1765 - HMS Victory constructed and launched from Chatham Docks.

    1770 - Nelson joins his first ship at the Chatham docks.

    1800-1803 - Victory is rebuilt at Chatham.

    1805 - Battle of Trafalgar, Victory and several other Chatham built ships partake in the battle.

    Just thought it was worth mentioning about chatham as a militray dock as the campaign screenshot shows portsmouth as the seemingly military dock while it was in fact secondary to Chatham during the period and it appears both may be on the map. I live in Rochester and Chatham is practically glued on along with Gillingham and all them lot! and Rochester and Chatham have been blessed with the likes of Charles Dickens, Samuel Pepys and Sir Joseph Williamson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Joseph_Williamson for those who don't know him ( he's a legend btw, talk about cash for honours )

  2. #2

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Yeah the dutch knew how to float a boat We english were so smug after Lowestoft as well...
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

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  3. #3
    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    The battle of chesapeake bay(Virginia saintes) in 1871, since it severly threatened the Royal Navy's command of the seas and was the decisive battle that some could say that cost Great Britain the American Colonies.

    I believe the worst of defeats was in the anglo-dutch wars especially the second one with the defeats at medway 1667 and the four days battle in 1666. Also after this conflict the Dutch had the most powerful and dominant navy in the world and dominated trade too.

    Third anglo-dutch wars too, which after the battle of texel in 1673 drove the English from the war that caused them to sue for peace and made England broke.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    And Cartagena de Indias? And the Counter Armed of Francis Drake?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...gena_de_Indias

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Armada
    ''Los infantes españoles prefieren la muerte a la derrota''


  5. #5
    Sven788's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Yes Brits and Dutch gave each other worst navel defeats in history, real competitors.
    But the raid of Medway is a very nice story/victory of Michiel de Ruyter also first marines is nice.





  6. #6

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    -JENKINS EAR WAR, SIEGE OF CARTAGENA DE INDIAS 1741:Admiral Blas de Lezo with around 3.000 men and 6 navys defeated British army compoused by 27.000 men and 186 navys.

    Wow that was horrible

  7. #7
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Interesting thread !

  8. #8

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    I find the Anglo-Dutch wars fascinating.. Being Dutch myself, it's nice to know that the big almighty British Empire could in fact be beaten by our very small Republic..Beaten hard.. Multiple times..

    But eventually they kicked us off the throne of the 'World's Finest'

    But we will be back!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiftehh View Post
    I find the Anglo-Dutch wars fascinating.. Being Dutch myself, it's nice to know that the big almighty British Empire could in fact be beaten by our very small Republic..Beaten hard.. Multiple times..

    But eventually they kicked us off the throne of the 'World's Finest'

    But we will be back!
    We're positively trembling old chap.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    LoL.. We've been allies for too long Plus we're fighting side-by-side in almost every war we've been in since the Falklands..

    Being in the Dutch navy myself (submarine service, petty officer weapons technician) I'll be checking out this post since the greatest naval defeats for the British we're given to them by us Dutchies

  11. #11

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiftehh View Post
    LoL.. We've been allies for too long Plus we're fighting side-by-side in almost every war we've been in since the Falklands..

    Being in the Dutch navy myself (submarine service, petty officer weapons technician) I'll be checking out this post since the greatest naval defeats for the British we're given to them by us Dutchies
    True enough. Were it not for the dutch we wouldn't have had the national bank, stock exchange and national debt to finance wars against france (possessing a less sophisticated finacial system). Nor would we have had a first-class naval force had we not cut our teeth on the Dutch Navy. So thanks!
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Cartagena de Indias..


  13. #13
    The_Bulgar_Slayer's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Don't forget about the French too! While they tended to lose to the Brits far more often than they won, they did win quite a few decent victories. The Battle of Beachy Head in 1690 could have been a great French strategic as well as tactical victory. It lead to one of the only times in history when they gained control of the English Channel. But alas, the French were indecisive and allowed William III to land in Ireland unopposed (where he defeated James II) while the British and Dutch fleets made a quick recovery and regained control of the Channel in only a couple months. That seems to have been typical of the French. When they did gain a naval victory they often failed to capitalize on it.

    Official Byzantine Historian for Tzardoms:Total War

  14. #14
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by HansDuet View Post
    Cartagena de Indias..
    In fact there was a wooden fleet against the stone fortress. I don't know why is it considered so great a defeat. Anyone attempting something of the kind would loose in 80% of the cases. It is more a crazy happening and waste of resources than a real defeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Bulgar_Slayer View Post
    When they did gain a naval victory they often failed to capitalize on it.
    And what should they have done ? Attack London ? French Armada ? Plus an operation in Ireland was always not worth from a continental point of view. They didn't rely on the small piece of land for resistance or something.
    Last edited by Dracula; March 01, 2009 at 09:53 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Yea, anybody would of course.

    Anything you say.

    Keep walking nothing to see here.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Cartagena de Indias was the GreatBritain's greatest naval defeat.

    Spain: 3600 trops and 6 ships
    Great Britain: 31400trops and 186 ships

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
    In fact there was a wooden fleet against the stone fortress. I don't know why is it considered so great a defeat. Anyone attempting something of the kind would loose in 80% of the cases. It is more a crazy happening and waste of resources than a real defeat.
    Stone fortress vs Wood Fortress? pls is not excuse, Great Britain attacked during days the "stone fortress" with 186 ships, and it was destroyed, but the Spanish soldiers and 6 ships won the battle.

    And, if you have 31400 trops and 186 ships VS 3600 troops and 6 ships, you can't loose the battle, While fighting a "stone fortress"
    Last edited by ClaseForNow; March 01, 2009 at 10:47 AM.

  17. #17
    The_Bulgar_Slayer's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
    And what should they have done ? Attack London ? French Armada ? Plus an operation in Ireland was always not worth from a continental point of view. They didn't rely on the small piece of land for resistance or something.
    They should have blocked the seaways between England and Ireland to keep William III's army from landing there. James II, Louis XIV, and William III are all quoted as having noticed the lack of the French fleet there allowed William to land, defeat James, and later send troops to the continent when he wouldn't have been able to so otherwise. Louis believed supporting James in Ireland was very important from his continental point of view. For little effort on Louis' part (about 8,000 troops), for 2 years James kept tens of thousands of English and Dutch soldiers, as well as their leader William, occupied and not fighting the French in Flanders.

    Official Byzantine Historian for Tzardoms:Total War

  18. #18

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Since we appear to be in almost discussion territory (and not before time) here are my thoughts on Battle of Cartagena de Indias:

    -The battle was an amphibious landing. After paradrops, these are probably the hardest miltary manouvre to pull off in any age.

    -The defensive advantage was with the defenders (unsuprisingly), as the target was heavily fortified. Also, there are limits to how many men you can bring ashore at any one time, thus maknig achieving critical mass very difficult, not matter how many troops you have.

    -Numbers counted against the British force, rather than for. Any set-back would be exascerbated by the disease-ridden carribean. Many RN sailors and soldiers regarded a Caribean posting to be a death sentence. Half the 18,000 casulaties were from disease, not spanish guns.

    -The two British commanders hated each other. This led to a poor chain-of-command. Comparatively, the Spanish had a clear command chain and was directed by a superb commander. Niether of the British Commanders were in any way exceptional.

    -It was decided on to be a rush job. Reducing the heavy fortifications to dust would have taken weeks or months. London wanted a quick victory to ensure they had a port big enough to build and refit the fleet. Big mistake.
    Last edited by Markas; March 01, 2009 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #19
    Ebusitanus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Disease also struck the Spanish lines, being De Lezo a notable victim after the battle was over. Spain also had a terrible relation between De Lezo and the Spanish local governor that sabotaged also some spanish efforts. Spanish troops were mostly raw militia and indian archers.

    It was a great victory no matter how one wants to judge it with hinsight.
    Read a napoleonic first hand account of a Hessian serving under the french flag

    Athenians: For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretenses - either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed;.......... since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

    Part of the Melian Dialogue in The History of the Pelopenessian War by Thucydides.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Great Britain's greatest naval defeat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebusitanus View Post
    Disease also struck the Spanish lines, being De Lezo a notable victim after the battle was over. Spain also had a terrible relation between De Lezo and the Spanish local governor that sabotaged also some spanish efforts. Spanish troops were mostly raw militia and indian archers.

    It was a great victory no matter how one wants to judge it with hinsight.
    Nelson got off quite easy in terms of limb sacrifice. De Lezo had no left leg, right arm and left eye? That's pretty badass.

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