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  1. #1
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Associated Press
    BAGHDAD - Iraq and the U.S. pushed close to a deal Thursday setting a course for American combat troops to pull out of Iraqi cities by next June on the way to broader withdrawal from the long and costly war by 2011.

    Subject to final approval by the top Iraqi leadership, the exit date for U.S. troops would be December 2011, although the Americans insist on linking that target to additional security and political progress.

    President Bush has long resisted a timetable for pulling out, even under heavy pressure from a nation distressed by American deaths and discouraged by the length of the war that began in 2003. But that has softened in recent weeks.

    The timing has major political importance in both Iraq and the U.S.

    The two contenders to replace Bush as U.S. commander in chief, Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama, spar almost daily over the future course of the war.

    Obama wants all U.S. combat forces out of Iraq within 16 months of his taking office, saying they are needed more urgently in Afghanistan. McCain says recent security improvements in Iraq show that decisions on the timing of further pullouts should be determined by circumstances on the ground rather than by prearranged timetables — a position the White House has vigorously held until recently.

    The administration has inched toward the Iraqi view that setting at least a target date for withdrawal would make it politically palatable for Iraq's government to accept a substantial U.S. troop presence beyond this year.

    Urgency in completing deal
    The rationale for the pullout is that Iraqi security forces will be ready to stand on their own, although it remains possible that some U.S. military training role would continue. In Iraq, provincial elections are supposed to be held later this year, followed by national balloting in 2009.

    In one key part of the draft agreement, private U.S. contractors would be subject to Iraqi law, unlike at present, but the American side held firm in its insistence that U.S. troops would remain subject exclusively to U.S. legal jurisdiction, officials said.

    There is an additional sense of urgency to complete a deal because the U.N. Security Council resolution that sets the legal basis for the U.S. troop presence in Iraq is due to expire at the end of this year.

    Asked about withdrawal, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, said Thursday in Baghdad, "We have agreed that some goals, some aspirational timetables for how that might unfold are well worth having in such an agreement." Her use of the term "aspirational" suggested that the timetables would be linked in some undisclosed way to the attainment of measurable progress in the security, political and perhaps economic fields.

    Other U.S. officials said the deal includes agreement that by June 30, 2009, U.S. combat forces would be out of Iraq's cities, set up elsewhere in the country in what the military calls an overwatch role — available to assist Iraqi security forces as needed, while continuing to train and advise Iraqi troops.

    Draft agreement
    At a joint news conference, Rice and Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said the two sides had accepted the draft agreement and would await a review by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and other top Iraqi leaders —some of whom oppose some parts of the deal — as well as the Iraqi parliament. The next step is consideration by al-Maliki and his executive council Friday.

    In the Sadr City section of eastern Baghdad, more than 500 followers of the anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr held a rally Thursday evening to denounce the Rice visit and the proposed security arrangement. Marchers carried flags and al-Sadr's picture, chanting, "No to the agreement."

    Saleh al-Mutlaq, leader of the second-largest Sunni faction in parliament, issued a statement saying the Americans should not depend on any agreement signed with the Shiite-dominated government. He called on the government to put the deal to a popular referendum rather than simply submit it to parliament.

    U.S. officials in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity because the deal is not final, said Bush administration acceptance of the arrangements was not in doubt unless Iraqi leaders insisted on changes. The administration has pledged to inform Congress but not submit the agreement for formal approval.

    In Baghdad, Rice met with Zebari, al-Maliki and other officials on a brief visit intended to push the Iraqis toward agreement.

    Said Zebari: "This agreement determines the principal provisions, requirements to regulate the temporary presence and the time horizon, the mission, of U.S. forces."

    Bush has stood firmly behind al-Maliki, and the U.S. resisted pressure last year from its Sunni Arab allies elsewhere in the Middle East to dump the Shiite prime minister in favor of a more secular leader.

    But al-Maliki has apparently taken a tough stand in the negotiations to refurbish his nationalist credentials and avoid the label of "America's man" ahead of coming elections.

    The Shiite political establishment is also anxious to run the country without U.S. constraints, believing it has the right as leaders of Iraq's largest community, which had been marginalized politically since the modern Iraqi state was established following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I.

    Rice spoke optimistically of completing a deal but stressed that it still needed top-level Iraqi approval. She also said it was made possible by security improvements.

    "I have to say, if I could just make the point, the reason we are where we are going, talking about this kind of agreement, is that the surge worked, Iraqi forces have demonstrated that they are strong and getting stronger," she said.

    Zebari, asked about fears expressed by neighboring countries over such a pact, said in Arabic: "This decision (agreement) is a sovereign one and Iran and other neighboring countries have the right to ask for clarifications. ... There are clear articles (that) say that Iraq will not be used as a launching pad for any aggressive acts against neighboring countries and we already did clarify this."

    A State Department transcript of Zebari's remarks said he added that Iran had been advised of that provision.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26324599/

    Interesting news to say the least. Is our long national nightmare over? Let's hope so.

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    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  2. #2
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    The Iraqi government likely wanted us out by the beginning of next year, but we pushed for a period that would give us a true year since the surge.

    We are supposed to be completely out by 2011, but I think you will still find a portion of military intelligence and a token special mission task force remain there for quite some time after that. Of course the CIA will also play a major role for decades to come.
    The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists
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  3. #3

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    We are supposed to be completely out by 2011, but I think you will still find a portion of military intelligence and a token special mission task force remain there for quite some time after that. Of course the CIA will also play a major role for decades to come.
    I don't think there is any country that wouldn't have either CIA or secret operatives within. If not really "americans" but those who are a local branch.

    Ohh, and Iran, they have them too, possibly even special forces too.

  4. #4
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseArcher View Post
    I don't think there is any country that wouldn't have either CIA or secret operatives within. If not really "americans" but those who are a local branch.

    Ohh, and Iran, they have them too, possibly even special forces too.
    Well in terms of Iran, they have the special group. Essentially a paramilitary entity within Iraq, comprised of mostly intelligence, and weapons experts from the Quds force.


    The CIA would likely be there in a official support role, as well as doing what they do in the interests of the US. The US has recruited hundreds of Iraqis, a sizable portion of which have made it back to the US to actually train in Virginia.
    The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    In the Sadr City section of eastern Baghdad, more than 500 followers of the anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr held a rally Thursday evening to denounce the Rice visit and the proposed security arrangement. Marchers carried flags and al-Sadr's picture, chanting, "No to the agreement."
    Wow, the Mahdi Army is really going down from the protests of yore.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Wow, the Mahdi Army is really going down from the protests of yore.
    It appears that for all intents and purposes, the Mahdi Army had splintered and effectively ceased to exist. Unsurprising, young Muqtada just doesn't have the charisma that his daddy did.

    Anyway.. This is a terrible idea. By making this agreement we are doing little more than playing into the hands of al-Maliki's people who are going to take the first chance they get to eliminate their Shi'a rivals -- the Sadrists and others, and marginalize the Sunnis, to the detriment of the entire country. I'm not going to be happy to see my compatriots' work come to naught.

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    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Info and common sense from the Poobah Leatherworks aka the Pinkertons states that we will also still be in Kuwait for probably decades to come.

    Chris

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    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Sometimes it is better to let a river run its course. IOTW, let the Iraqis finally solve their own internal issues in the near future to a large degree.

    Chris

  9. #9

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    Sometimes it is better to let a river run its course. IOTW, let the Iraqis finally solve their own internal issues in the near future to a large degree.

    Chris
    Those internal issues were caused by US actions. We still have a responsibility to do as much as we can to rectify problems which we caused. Anything less is a disservice and a sham to our abilities and credibility. You don't let a river run its course when you created the river and built a crappy dam.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    The deal isn't about US troops pulling out of Iraq...

    BBC.
    US troops' immunity from prosecution and the timing of a US pull-out remain to be resolved, correspondents say.

    The draft deal being discussed includes a commitment that US troops will start to pull out of Iraq's cities from next summer, moving to large bases out of public view, says the BBC's Crispin Thorold in Baghdad.

  11. #11

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    The deal isn't about US troops pulling out of Iraq...
    Pulling out of the cities is equivalent to pulling out of the country, that's where all the action happens.

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Pulling out of the cities is equivalent to pulling out of the country, that's where all the action happens.
    But pulling out of the country means they can't be redeployed quickly if needed, whereas this just means they will be out of the Iraqi citizens view giving the illusion that the US isn't pulling the strings, and the government is doing good. It's just a political trick.

  13. #13

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    No, it means that US forces will be very exposed whenever they attempt to enter the cities or do any kind of patrolling. It's a set up for military failure, that's what it is.

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Then why is Bush signing it? Especially when the election is in a couple of months time.

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Then why is Bush signing it? Especially when the election is in a couple of months time.
    Take a look at Nixon's policies in Vietnam and you may find your answer.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    I don;t see a similarity, perhaps you should just tell me.

  17. #17

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    It's a way to get out 'honorably' or whatever they like to call it these days while leaving someone friendly in power, nevermind that Maliki's group is planning on starting up a civil war as soon as no-one's looking over their shoulders.

    You really don't see the similarity with Vietnam there? I've never been one to call Iraq the new Vietnam -- its utterly ludicrous to me -- but some of the decisions made are kind of oddly similar.

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    It's a way to get out 'honorably' or whatever they like to call it these days while leaving someone friendly in power, nevermind that Maliki's group is planning on starting up a civil war as soon as no-one's looking over their shoulders.

    You really don't see the similarity with Vietnam there? I've never been one to call Iraq the new Vietnam -- its utterly ludicrous to me -- but some of the decisions made are kind of oddly similar.
    I don't see how you support McCain then on this, granted i see why you oppose Obama, i also oppose his policy regarding Iraq but McCain's policy seems to be unfolding prematurley.

  19. #19

    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    I don't see how you support McCain then on this, granted i see why you oppose Obama, i also oppose his policy regarding Iraq but McCain's policy seems to be unfolding prematurley.
    Who said I support McCain's policy completely too? I support whatever Patraeus says needs to be done.

    Farnan: That's if, a rather big if, those elections actually occur as they should. I guess we'll see soon.

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    Default Re: U.S., Iraq close to deal on troop withdrawl

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Who said I support McCain's policy completely too? I support whatever Patraeus says needs to be done.
    Ah, loyal to the Commander. Does he not get a say in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Maliki will be out of power the next national elections. His party is unpopular in Iraq, and only gained its power due to the fact it was more organized than the rest. The exiles were never popular with the stay-behinds, and their pro-Iranian stance isn't liked by the Tribal Shi'ites which make up the majority. Furthermore, their inability to provide basic services destroyed their credibility. This provincial election and the next national election will see a rise in power of the more secular tribes (which contain members of both sects, some are predominatly Sunni and others are predominantly Shi'ite though).
    Thats my point this is just a political trick to make it look like he is powerful, but the insurgency will be stepped up without 150,000 US troops.

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