THE MONEY SYSTEM

[Desperado †]

Note: The florins worth are from statistics I calculated from the TW game. We may change florins worth later to be more historically accurate. By this system, a florin is worth a lot.

OK, here is the updated money system and how things work.

Bying land does not cost you money, seeing as Freedmen just rent land, Knights/Peers get it from their King when they become Knights and Priests/Bishop get it from the Church.

Now, in return for their land, a Knight gives millitary service to his lord. This is explained in the millitary deaths part. During an expidition a King may state that the expedition is forced conscription, I.E all able Knights must serve.

But that dosen't mean they weren't excluded for taxes. There where taxes on food, taxes when the King went to war and so on. Taxes upon taxes. So the Knight has peasents upon his land to grow his food and such. But on this we will simple it down. Lets say you have enough peasents growing food and such or enough money from the church to eat and live. But we still got the taxes to pay, so here are the jobs.

Jobs
Rising in rank for jobs;
When you rise in your normal ranks, you will rise in your job rank. You will get paid more, but of course, being richer, you will be taxed some more.

Every year, the job roller will roll the dice to see what you get.

I have lowered the types of jobs down to two - farmer and merchant.

Farming
You character may invest in farming, or be a farmer. Farming is a fairly set pay, with not much variants unless the crops are bad.
Average pay for farming each year:
Dice chances:
1,2,3,4 = Average harvest.
5 = Bad Harvest.
6 = Good Harvest

Freedman (average farmer) Pay
Average Harvest: 5 florins
Bad Harvest: 3 florin
Good harvest: 7 florins

Knight/Priest (farm owner) Pay
Average Harvest: 20 florins
Bad Harvest: 12 florins
Good Harvest 28 florins

Peer (Baron or Count or Earl)/Bishop (farming investor) Pay
Average Harvest: 80 florins
Bad Harvest: 48 florins
Good Harvest: 112 florins

Merchant
Your character might be a simple merchant, barganing at the market, or a market owner, investing in the world of buisness. Merchants take more of a gamble than farmers, they may win a lot more, or a lot less
Merchant Dice Chances:
1,2 = Average deal
3,4 = Good Deal
5,6 = Bad deal

Freedman (average haggler) Pay
Average deal: 5 florins
Bad deal: 1 florin
Good deal: 9 florins

Knight/Priest (market investor) Pay
Average deal: 20 florins
Bad deal: 4 florins
Good deal: 36 florins

Peer (Baron or Count or Earl)/Bishop (realm financial investor) Pay
Average deal: 80 florins
Bad deal: 16 florins
Good Deal: 144 florins

TAXES!!!
Everybody paid taxes then, we decided on that. We will simple it down, not changing it between Priest and Knight (say if the taxes are risen by the King, the taxes are higher on the church in that province, so the church must demand more of its Bishops/Priests). You will state which province your estate is in. If the taxes change in game on that province, they will change for roleplay here.

Freedman Tax
Low Tax Rate: 3 florins
Average tax rate: 4 florins
High tax rate: 5 florins
Very high tax rate: 6 florins

Knight/Priest Tax
Low tax rate: 12 florins
Average tax rate: 16 florins
High tax rate: 20 florins
Very High tax rate: 24 florins

Peer (Baron or Count or Noble)/Bishop Tax
Low tax rate: 48 florins
Average tax rate: 64 florins
High tax Rate: 80 florins
Very High tax rate: 96 florins

Bankrupcy
If you become bankrupt, either a fellow person must give you money, or you may face a trial.

Civil War
In a Civil War, money will be abandoned until the end of it.

Lord Chancellor e.t.c
Extra titles such as this may give you extra income. This is yet to be decided.

Other Money
People may give you money, you may recieve some if a settlement is sacked in game or a ransom takes place.

What do I do with my money?
Corruption, bribes, friendship and so on is very important with money. Money controls the world. It controls politics. You could rigg a trial and so on. I will make dice chances for these later.

[Romanos IV]

Wow! Awesome idea!

[knight of virtue and valor]

cant pay Alerick enouph for his loyalty or lack of it....

[Desperado †]

This will hopefully be installed Sunday ish. We still have the matter of representing the money.

[Captain Blackadder]

One thing that I can see that needs to be changed is that money needs to be used for more then just taxes perhaps make it so that when you go on a expedition with the king you must pay for armour which then changes your chances of dieing or if you are a priest you must pay to go to great universities where you learn theology or something. Because as it stands we all make a quite a bit of money whilst we have nothing to sink it into which in reality would create a huge amount of inflation.

However I do like the idea of it I just think we need more stuff to use it for.

[Celsius]

How much does the King get?

[Dance the older]

How much does the King get?

I think it's more along the lines of "how much does the King pay"

[Double A]

The king would get the taxes right?

[Celsius]

I guess so.

[Djûn]

A nifty little thing that should be mentioned here is the use of what's known as the Knight's Fee and Scutage.

The Knight's Fee was method for measuring the value of a fief granted to a knight. One Knight's Fee was used as a value to represent the cost of hiring a knight for the annual military service required for each knight in the feudal system. The typical fee was apparently around £20 per annum per knight (for reference a florin was created to be six shillings, there being 20 shillings in the pound, meaning that the Knight's Fee was about 67 florins p.a.). To make this slightly easier to comprehend, imagine that the Knight's Fee is simply another currency such that 1 KF = 67 florins per year. Fiefs were each given a value in KFs such that each landowner was able to know how much was owed to the Crown.

For example: A rather wealthy and powerful Baron with the King's eye is granted a lush and expansive fief worth a whole 60 Knight's Fees. This means that the Baron in charge of this estate is forced to pay the Crown 60 KFs per year OR supply the Crown with 60 knights worth of military service, hence the 'sub-letting' of the fiefs to lower ranked knights who them had a relationship with the Baron similar to that of the Baron to the Crown.

This leads on to the rather interesting point of Scutage. A Scutage (deriving from the Latin scutum meaning 'shield') was the payment of a Knight's Fee to the Crown so that such a knight would not have to perform his military service.

For example: Sir Godwin, an aged Baron who has found himself far too fond of the life of luxury. As a result Sir Godwin has become rather overweight and lacking in his military training, further resulting in the disrepair of his weapons and armour. He receives word that the Crown requires the service of a single knight from him. Having no knights at his disposal, his only option would be to serve himself. Sir Godwin however, has no intention of risking his life in such a state and so decides to pay the Scutage of one Knight's Fee such that the Monarch may buy himself a mercenary knight.

To summarise these ideas:

-A Knight's Fee is an amount worth roughly 67 florins per year, it is a way of describing the value of a fief granted by the Crown. This value represented how many knights a Monarch would expect a fief-owner to supply him for military per year.
-A Scutage is an amount which a fief-owner may pay the Monarch in order to excuse himself from that year's military service.

It should be noted that the Crown would ask the Baron for his knights' services, the Baron would then inform his knights (if indeed he had any on his land) that their service was due. It was then for the knights to either turn up at the Baron's Manor, or to supply him with a scutage to deliver to the Sovereign. This means that a Baron could well,for example, provide a annual fee of 50 KFs with 40 knights and 670 florins.

*PLEASE* do not hesitate to ask me to explain using further examples if this is confusing, as it took me some time to get my head around it as well.

EDIT: Before I forget, the tax rate of feudal England was typically a flat rate of 1/3. This means that the 'third penny' must be paid to the Sovereign or local lord.

Another reference to mention as well is that a free peasant could expect to earn roughly 12 florins per year (between £3 and £4) thus resulting in a tax of 4 florins per year.

[Desperado †]

A nifty little thing that should be mentioned here is the use of what's known as the Knight's Fee and Scutage.

The Knight's Fee was method for measuring the value of a fief granted to a knight. One Knight's Fee was used as a value to represent the cost of hiring a knight for the annual military service required for each knight in the feudal system. The typical fee was apparently around £20 per annum per knight (for reference a florin was created to be six shillings, there being 20 shillings in the pound, meaning that the Knight's Fee was about 67 florins p.a.). To make this slightly easier to comprehend, imagine that the Knight's Fee is simply another currency such that 1 KF = 67 florins per year. Fiefs were each given a value in KFs such that each landowner was able to know how much was owed to the Crown.

For example: A rather wealthy and powerful Baron with the King's eye is granted a lush and expansive fief worth a whole 60 Knight's Fees. This means that the Baron in charge of this estate is forced to pay the Crown 60 KFs per year OR supply the Crown with 60 knights worth of military service, hence the 'sub-letting' of the fiefs to lower ranked knights who them had a relationship with the Baron similar to that of the Baron to the Crown.

This leads on to the rather interesting point of Scutage. A Scutage (deriving from the Latin scutum meaning 'shield') was the payment of a Knight's Fee to the Crown so that such a knight would not have to perform his military service.

For example: Sir Godwin, an aged Baron who has found himself far too fond of the life of luxury. As a result Sir Godwin has become rather overweight and lacking in his military training, further resulting in the disrepair of his weapons and armour. He receives word that the Crown requires the service of a single knight from him. Having no knights at his disposal, his only option would be to serve himself. Sir Godwin however, has no intention of risking his life in such a state and so decides to pay the Scutage of one Knight's Fee such that the Monarch may buy himself a mercenary knight.

To summarise these ideas:

-A Knight's Fee is an amount worth roughly 67 florins per year, it is a way of describing the value of a fief granted by the Crown. This value represented how many knights a Monarch would expect a fief-owner to supply him for military per year.
-A Scutage is an amount which a fief-owner may pay the Monarch in order to excuse himself from that year's military service.

It should be noted that the Crown would ask the Baron for his knights' services, the Baron would then inform his knights (if indeed he had any on his land) that their service was due. It was then for the knights to either turn up at the Baron's Manor, or to supply him with a scutage to deliver to the Sovereign. This means that a Baron could well,for example, provide a annual fee of 50 KFs with 40 knights and 670 florins.

*PLEASE* do not hesitate to ask me to explain using further examples if this is confusing, as it took me some time to get my head around it as well.

EDIT: Before I forget, the tax rate of feudal England was typically a flat rate of 1/3. This means that the 'third penny' must be paid to the Sovereign or local lord.

Another reference to mention as well is that a free peasant could expect to earn roughly 12 florins per year (between £3 and £4) thus resulting in a tax of 4 florins per year.

Excellent historical refrence Dune.

So by this law, a Knight (if he does not give millatary sevice in that year and has not given mnore than he shouldve the year before) must pay tax?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

@Captain Blackadder-

I was and am thinking and collecting more spending money ideas, such as perhaps a tavern tab and so on. I wanted to keep this post simple though.

[Double A]

You lost me at the example...

[Djûn]

You lost me at the example...

Haha, fair enough. It works a bit like this, the Sovereign controls all the land in the Kingdom. He grants the land out to Barons as fiefs and the Barons in return pay him with an annual military service. However, some Barons received large fiefs such that a a larger military service was owed. A fief which the Crown required one knight's service per year is deemed to be worth one Knight's Fee.

Example: An average plot of land is given to a Baron and in return the King requires the annual service of one knight from this Baron for the land. This fief would then be worth one Knight's Fee as it requires the Baron to supply one knight to own it. Similarly, if the King says that a larger fief requires its Baron to supply 20 knights per year, it would have a value of 20 Knight's Fees (abbreviated to KFs for simplicity).

Right so with that out the way comes the idea of scutage. Scutage is essentially a knight paying his way out of going to serve his annual military service. So say, for example, a Baron owns a fief worth one KF, he must supply one knight per year to the King to own this fief. However, if the Baron does not want to supply a knight, or is unable to do so, he may pay an amount of money to the King. This amount of money is the same as one KF (worth about 67 florins in feudal England).

Example: The Baron owns a fief worth one KF. The Monarch informs him that his service is due. However, instead of sending a knight to perform this annual duty, he decides to pay the scutage: One KF worth of florins, i.e. 67 florins.

Now expanding on this idea, say the Baron has a large fief of 20 KF. He may supply the King with 20 knights, but he may not want to risk this many knights or the knights themselves may not want to serve. In this case the Baron may send, say, 10 knights to the King along with an amount of money equal to the remaining 10 KF, i.e. 670 florins.

Does this clear it up at all? :S

[Double A]

no... I think I'm just going to leave everything for you and Caradog to figure out...

[Djûn]

If you insist. A very basic way to think about it is this: I owe you a favour and you decide that you want me to wash your car. However, instead of washing your car I decide to pay you £20 to take it to a car wash.

In this parallel, you are equivalent to the King and I am equivalent to a knight; the service of washing your car is equivalent to the annual military service; and the £20 I paid you to get your car washed is equivalent to a scutage.

[Double A]

I don't have a car...

But I get it now... sort of. (I'll get Caradog to explain it, he can translate YRBOVVTRB to Hi.)

[knight of virtue and valor]

really dune, I think Alerick and me are going to like you, the GSTK forums need more like you!, I really like reading your posts!

[Desperado †]

Yes. Dune's info is great.

I will update the money's worth again before we put it into place, but this gives you an average idea.

[knight of virtue and valor]

and you have done allot for GSTK, so thank you to!

[Djûn]

The Monarch should get 1/3 of all income of all players. This idea was from based on the almost fanatical devotion to the number three in the Medieval world, due to the Trinity.

A Knight must pay tax every year to his lord or to the King; any Barons must also pay this tax. The Scutage is merely a alternative to military service, all people must pay tax anyway. Scutage is useful if, for example, a knight feels that an almost unwinnable campaign is approaching and such he does not want to risk his life, especially if he is one of the ranks more susceptible to death on the field. It's also useful if a Baron owns a large plot of land worth, say, 20 Knight's Fees but only has 10 knights available to the Sovereign.

A quick little run down of the currency system would be as such:

Smallest denomination = pennies (pence), abbreviated to 'd'
Next denomination = shillings, abbreviated to 's'
Largest denomination = pounds sterling, abbreviated to '£'

There are 12 pence in the shilling and 20 shillings in the pound. A florin is equivalent to 6 shillings.