10 French soldiers die in Afghan battle

[pajomife]

10 French soldiers die and 21 wounded in Afghan battle ,until now is the worst battle in the Afghan war,Insurgents ambushed a group of French parachutists outside Kabul, sparking a battle that killed 10 of the soldiers in the biggest loss of life for international forces in combat in Afghanistan in more than three years.

This could be a turning point in the Afghan war,with more losses for west troops?

And note the Pervez Musharraf resigns as president of Pakistan,the west lose an Allie .The Afghanistan will be a Sanctuary for the Talibans?

20-08-2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/wo...em&oref=slogin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/...as/afghanistan

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/...a/20france.php

[Yorkshireman]

A terrible day for the French army, but I don't think it signifies a turning point in the campaign. it probably will have an adverse effect on French public opinion though, I'm not sure what the support there is for their participation in Afghanistan ?

[Carach]

This could be a turning point in the Afghan war,with more losses for west troops?

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?

i'd go for any of the first 3, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become great marksmen over night.

[pajomife]

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?

i'd go for any of the first 3, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become great marksmen over night.

They are French parachutists,not a conscript troops,they are an elite unit,but as we learn about Taliban tactics they learn about west troops tactics,and may become a serious problem,and now with a more impressible neighborhood,this may becomes a Afghanistan as the Russian experienced.

[Carach]

They are French parachutists,not a conscript troops,they are an elite unit,but as we learn about Taliban tactics they learn about west troops tactics,and may become a serious problem,and now with a more impressible neighborhood,this may becomes a Afghanistan as the Russian experienced.

taliban have been ambushing people for a long time, being elite troops doesnt mean they have great equipment (as we know from the other month's report on the french armed forces, much of their stuff is out of date or is very unreliable).

if they were caught in an extremely bad location they could have been gunned down before air support arrived.....equipment may not have worked to get them the support..... so on so forth theres a lot of possible reasons, i was just listing a few possible, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become expert marksmen overnight.

And I can't say that this will either increase or decrease the public support for the operation.

Indeed, Could well spark some desire for french troops to get some revenge, could hamper the efforts of sarkosy to bring france into the action more (people back home wanting to bring troops home etc etc )

@Carach: Rubbish equipment? You know about French equipment, do you...
.

the rather impverished French military was much publicised recently with Sarkosy's report on the subject of its future so..

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?


Carach's selective memory probably forgot that recently the Taleban overran an American outpost in Eastern Afghanistan, killing nine, wounding what two dozen??

No, i havent forgotten several incidents where US troops have been ambushed/overrun and so forth by the taliban, the other year a seal team were killed to a man after one such gunbattle, i was merely listing off some possible reasons as we are all speculating.. harmless banter is offensive now is it?

And Carach calls me biased. I don't use the death of 10 soldiers to bash their 'military experience' or lack of proper equipment. And I honestly think that you Ought to be ashamed of yourself.

oh hush centurion nobody knows what happened, so i was simply listing off a few possible reasons. There are of course many as ive followed up on. But hey feel free to use ur personal dislike for me to start making pathetic insults I dont particularly care but theres nothing offensive in what i said: it has come to light that the french military is rather lacking with regards to appropriate equipment, and much of what it has is old and unreliable. This was admitted by the french government themselves, not merely commented on by me. It is also logical to consider that as a force the french havent been in nearly as much action as those in the south and as such may not use many of the tactics/equipment that can avoid being ambushed/killed so easily.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

oh hush centurion nobody knows what happened,

That's right, so Normal people don't feel the need to mull through the possibilities of what exactly happens.

so i was simply listing off a few possible reasons. There are of course many as ive followed up on.

So three possible explanations, all of them criticisms, and the 4th one which is the obvious truth and is consistent with the reports we've been getting about a resurgent, smarter and more taliban is the one that you ignore.

Instead, you pick the one that you made up off of the one report that the French Army was having severe equipment issues yet never specified if these were affecting French Forces in the NATO mission to Afghanistan.

But hey feel free to use ur personal dislike for me to start making pathetic insults

Carach I never used the death of 10 people as an excuse to bash another nation.

I dont particularly care but theres nothing offensive in what i said:

Sure Carach, Sure. Nothing Offensive at all, not biased at all. A totally well thought out, well planned and well-said post. Sure.

it has come to light that the french military is rather lacking with regards to appropriate equipment, and much of what it has is old and unreliable. This was admitted by the french government themselves, not merely commented on by me.

We have a report that Peace-time French equipment is not in good quality and that the defense apparatus is in serious need of reform in at least 10 years. Sarkozy is already planning a reform of the Army. We have received no evidence that French soldiers in Afghanistan are not well-armed and prepared.

It is also logical to consider that as a force the french havent been in nearly as much action as those in the south and as such may not use many of the tactics/equipment that can avoid being ambushed/killed so easily.

No it's not logical, it's a guess. U.S. troops have had similar casualties inflicted on them by the Taliban, they are clearly doing the lion's share of the fighting.

[Eskali]

They are French parachutists,not a conscript troops,they are an elite unit,but as we learn about Taliban tactics they learn about west troops tactics,and may become a serious problem,and now with a more impressible neighborhood,this may becomes a Afghanistan as the Russian experienced.

If Masoud hadn't have died we would have won this war already

Related to Afganistan-
What the U.S. army need and NATO needs, M249 Mk 48 Mod 0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_48_Mod_0#M249_variants
M416 Rifle(Very reliable weapon, can be fired full off sand or water, can take a beatin, better accuracy etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_416 "HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages." wiki
Dragon skin Armour (Only reason this isn't mainstream is cause of coruption "In April 2008 one of the Dragon Skin vests, with serial number that identify it as a one of 30 vests bought by Department of Defense for U.S. Army for testing in 2006, was listed and later bought from eBay. The vest was shot more than 30 times with no single failure. The seller, David Bronson, allegedly was connected to U.S. Army testing facility. U.S. Government Accountability Office (GOA), U.S. Department of Justice and F.B.I. is investigating matter as of May 2008. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor
Enhanced Vehicle Protection(Anti I.E.D.)
Quicker more efficant medivacs (Prefarebly some Ospreys that are just bein broiught into service)

That all should help prevent KIA's

Edit-"In a test for the History Channel's military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of pointed steel ammunition from an AK-47 (7.62 × 39 mm) and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch area on the vest. " wiki
"In Fresno, California, police officers ordered it after a vest stopped all the bullets fired during a test, including .308 rounds from a sniper rifle and 30 rounds from a fully automatic MP5 fired from five feet away. Ninety-eight federal, state, and local law enforcement officers witnessed the SWAT test. The armor also stopped 40 rounds of PS-M1943 mild steel core bullets from an AK-47 along with 200 9 mm FMJ military ball bullets fired from a submachine gun."
This vest is AMAZING!!

You yanks may have the best warplanes and bombs and gadgets but fot the hard workin infantrymen he is left in the mud, seriously write letters of complaint to your government cause people are gettin killed fightin' for you when they could be saved!!!

Edit- The Taliban did not fight the Soviets!!!!
It was the Mujahideen that deafeted the Soviets and then the Taliban ousted the Mujahideen afeter the defeated the soviets, the remaneants of the Mujahideen are called the Northen Alliance, Please people read up on this first. The best commander ever to grace afganistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shah_Massoud
Read it!

The CIA funded the Soviet-Afganistan war by giving funds the ISI(Pakistan Inteligance Service) who in turn gave it to commaders that obeyed their orders. Only at the end did they give direct supplies to the Mujahideen.

[StarDreamer]

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?

i'd go for any of the first 3, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become great marksmen over night.

We don't know enough to say it was the soldiers fault. We don't know how many ambushed them, nor how many the French were. Nor do we know how good a ambush spot it was. In fact it seems all we know is that they were ambushed and 10 died. Tragic, but such is war.

And I can't say that this will either increase or decrease the public support for the operation.

[Serious Spamurai]

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?

i'd go for any of the first 3, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become great marksmen over night.

Afghans used to be good shots until they discovered full auto.

[Omar Nelson B.]

Afghans used to be good shots until they discovered full auto.

Blame the AK! Blame the AK!


Sad that soldiers die. It doesn't matter where they come from. Let's not turn this into a USA v France flame war. I think that the real thing we should be worried about is the Taliban regrouping and starting to focus on
Afghanistan on a large scale.

[Каие]

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support....

They were elite parachutist regiment, like our SAS. The truth is they were out done. An anomaly if anything.

You guys are getting all worried about 10 French soldiers, and now they should pull out. What about the thousands of U.S. soldiers who are dead over there, and more dying everyday?
Give me a break, this is pathetic.

The number of US troops dead is 476, which proportionally considering you have 18,000 men that's 2.5%. France has 1,670 men and 24 have died so about 1.5%. Anyway nice way to talk to your allies, who could leave you overnight.


---------------


The most significant aspect of this attack is that;

• The attack took place in Kabul, the Afghan capital, and the most secure area.

• 70% of the French population oppose the war.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

their rubbish equipment probably failed them.. or the lack of military experience, maybe the lack of air support..... or maybe the taliban have actually improved their accuracy and implementation of their tactics?

i'd go for any of the first 3, because i doubt the taliban have suddenly become great marksmen over night.

And Carach calls me biased. I don't use the death of 10 soldiers to bash their 'military experience' or lack of proper equipment. And I honestly think that you Ought to be ashamed of yourself.

The reason the Taliban inflicted such high casualties is the same reason they were able to attack a U.S. base killing 9 Americans and the same reason they were able to successfully attack a prison in Kandahar and release Terrorists, Murders and Rapists. The war is getting farther away from Nato, we see more combat in Afghanistan then In Iraq, Un-thinkable 6 months ago. The Taliban are emboldened, they have a safe zone across the Pakistani border which Pakistan can't do very much about. They are using new, more organized tactics that are giving them success they never had.

The reason the 10 French soldiers died is not because they were some how 'inferior' to others.

[Dodge]

The Taliban are emboldened, they have a safe zone across the Pakistani border which Pakistan can't do very much about.

Replace can't with won't and you're onto something there.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Replace can't with won't and you're onto something there.

So just because of a 'safe-haven' that's roughly the size of 5% of Afghanistan's total area, the Taliban are whopping NATO's butt?

Seriously, if that really IS the case, how do you explain the Taliban operations as far away as Herat and Mazar-i-Sharif? This "Pakistani safe-haven" thing is an excuse to push the blame on others. How about the thousands of NATO and other coalition troops in Afghanstan who don't have the mandate to engage the Taliban? Why aren't THEY told to "do more"?

And by the way, the Pakistani army is engaged in clashes with the Tehrik-i-Taliban (which is very DIFFERENT from the Taliban, has different origins, has different aims and has an altogether different leadership) in the South Waziristan region as we speak.

[Surgeon]

Nay, I don't see how this is really significant. The Talibs managed to pull off a successful ambush and did some damage, but 10 people is not a huge number. If they'd killed some 50 men I would have been surprised.

[metenojo]

Nay, I don't see how this is really significant. The Talibs managed to pull off a successful ambush and did some damage, but 10 people is not a huge number. If they'd killed some 50 men I would have been surprised.

10 deaths and 20 wounded is the largest number until now,we saw no improvements in the field,now the rebels are very much organized and aggressive,Al-Qaeda change theirs operations to Afghanistan and this is the result.

[antares24]

i'm sorry for the dead french soldier, the bbc article about it say:

The French troops had been caught up in fighting that started on Monday in the area of Sirobi some 50 km (30 miles) east of Kabul.

They were killed "during a joint reconnaissance mission with the Afghan National Army", Mr Sarkozy said in a statement.

"Serious measures, notably in the air, were taken to support and extricate our men caught in an extremely violent ambush."
The French leader said his visit to Afghanistan would be to show his support for French troops there.
France has 3,000 troops deployed in Afghanistan. Tuesday's deaths bring to 24 the number killed since 2002, AFP says.


"The French were ambushed in a village after they left the Ozbin valley," an Afghan intelligence officer told the BBC.
"They were ambushed from several directions. The Taleban and al-Qaeda forces used heavy machine guns and other weapons. They fired from mountains and gardens."

The fighting went on for 24 hours.

The French recently took over control of the Kabul regional command which includes Sirobi.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7569942.stm

there are also 21 wounded, and the fight lasted for 24 hours, so it probably can be more properly described as a battle, i'm curious to know how many talebans were here, with 10 dead and 21 wounded the french patrol wasn't probably a little formation, so it seems that this was quite a big attack.

In any case that's not good for the french afghan involvement, 2/3 of the pubblic opinion are against it i read.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

If anything, the Afganis persevere, and they eventually adapt.
@Carach: Rubbish equipment? You know about French equipment, do you...
In regards to the abilities of the Afganis' I'm currently reading "Bear Went Over the Mountain" and the larger tactics for tribesmen seems not to have changed much.
The second attack against the US base is not suprising, either. It's how the US lost 9 men awhile back.

[king-nord]

10 dead 21 wounded, jesus.

I think its about time european countrie's left afganistan.

[the_mango55]

10 dead 21 wounded, jesus.

I think its about time european countrie's left afganistan.

10 dead?

Who goes to war and leaves when they lose 10 men?