A question about Noahs ark...

[Father Jack]

and a snake did turn into a walking stick, a cloud started talking, a virgin got pregnant, a man came back from the dead, a talking snake, magical apples, some dudes hair made him uber strong, a man parted a whole sea, trumpets broke a large stone wall, some guy walked on water ..... yeh these guys wernt stoned when they wrote this

[Pontifex Maximus]

The story of the ark just isn't true. It can't be. So if only Noah's family was left, how did they repopulate exactly? Incest? Well that is impossible because the penalty for incest in ancient Jewish law is death, so God wouldn't have allowed that. So that remains a mystery.

Then the obvious fact that transporting two of every species would be impossible. Where did they get food for all the animals, where did they keep them et cetera.

[AngryTitusPullo]

The story of the ark just isn't true. It can't be. So if only Noah's family was left, how did they repopulate exactly? Incest? Well that is impossible because the penalty for incest in ancient Jewish law is death, so God wouldn't have allowed that. So that remains a mystery.

Noah isn't Jewish. He predates the Hebrews by several generations.

Anyway I can explain something from my point of view, which is base on Islamic point of view (we have story about Noah too and he isn't Arab !).

In the Qur'an it says that there's messengers sent by God to each and every tribe/community so there's probably multiple 'Noahs' in each part of the populated area that the flood happens.

The flood could happened when the ice melts, it could happened when river overflows, it could happen when the dam broke or whatever, but I do believe it happened.

It may not be the whole 'world', but possibly in a particular 'world' if there's only 'one' Noah as in the story.

[kev-o]

This also just came to mind. If the story about the ark is just metaphorical and it's about the parable, then what the hell was with the flood?

Parable is about baptism.

I think there was a major flood, but not a total global one. Almost every culture has a flood myth so it could have been reminiscient of a major flood that scattered many people.

[finsternis]

Parable is about baptism.

I think there was a major flood, but not a total global one. Almost every culture has a flood myth so it could have been reminiscient of a major flood that scattered many people.

or maybe floods occur everywhere there is water. And since most of the world is water, then it is probable that almost every civilization that is near a water source had a big flood.

Besides, do all these flood stories that every civilization has happened at the same time?

[Blau&Gruen]

Parable is about baptism.

That is the christian allegory. But in it's context, it's not. The metaphor or if you want the parable is that in the world where the chassid study the Torah floods like the one of this story do not happen because the chassid looks on the world as a world which is and which is going to be saved. The flood in the Bible is the first story of a salvation (after the blessings which follow the curses at the end of the paradies narration). It basically says, there are bad things to come certainly, indeed they can't be as bad as what is told here.

[zrweber]

Also, even if the flood didn't happen like it was mention in the bible, it still doesn't debunk the bible completely. It may be legend, which has an importiant purpose w/ history explaining what is not known in a resonable way at that time. It may be inspired legend, were it's not litterally historically true but way writing in such a way that understandably comunicated the truth of God to a people who didn't have much of the advaces we now have.

Read J. R. R. Tolkien's intro to the Simirillion (his uncompleted magnum opis), he has a really good word or too to say about the importiance of legend in society.

In my opinion, it seems to point to a litteral story, and I think there is goood evidence that it happened sometime between 12000-5000 b.c. but I am no historian, I just read what others say and hope they are telling me the truth, like most people do.

[Blau&Gruen]

People to do not remember normally that long. Memory in a cultural horizont without writing can last a few generations at best. Cultures with scripture can preserve informations a bit longer but normally they do not or preserve just what appears import to them like rules how to cook and eat or fantastic entertaining features of a narrative.
Even cultures with scripture do not preserve facts in a naturalistic sense over longer periods. Memories cease and stories are applied to new circumstances. There has been research about this question of cultural memory for nearly 80 years now and it is rather clear how far it can go and where our abilities (culturally) end.
Btw. literature would be a rather stable form of cultural memory perservation. That is why people should read books. Computer games hold a few years, books several centuries, if they are good and circumstances are friendly.

I've found these quotes in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, today. They are from an article about Kafka and my translation will just be arbitrary and full of faults. Still, it gives you an idea what the dimenisions are we are talking about.

Vielleicht werden wir also gar nicht sehr viel entbehren, Josefine aber, erlöst von der irdischen Plage, die aber ihrer Meinung nach Auserwählten bereitet ist, wird fröhlich sich verlieren in der zahllosen Menge der Helden unseres Volkes, und bald, da wir keine Geschichte treiben, in gesteigerter Erlösung vergessen sein wie alle ihre Brüder.

"Translation"

We may not miss a lot, then. Josefine, however, saved from the earthen bother which is prepared for the chosen, according to her opinion, will happily be absorbed in the countless number of the heroes of our nation and soon be forgotten like all her brothers in graded salvation because we do not keep the records.

The author of the article then writes foreseeing:

Die Erlösung bleibt aus, denn der Fluch der Erinnerung liegt im Verzicht auf Rettung durch das Vergessen. Die Untoten der Literatur leben in unseren Lektüren weiter, zur ewigen Dauer verdammt. Kafkas letzter Satz bewirkt dasselbe wie seine letzte Bitte - das Gegenteil dessen, was er sagt.

"Translation"

The redemption fails to appear for the curse of memory lays in the release of salvation by those who forget the lyrics. The undeads of literature live on in their own lecture, condemned in eternal perpetuity. Kafkas last sentences causes the same as his last request (not to publish his texts) - the opposit of what he says.

Blessed are those who can forget.

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub1DA1FB848C1E...~Scontent.html

[kev-o]

or maybe floods occur everywhere there is water. And since most of the world is water, then it is probable that almost every civilization that is near a water source had a big flood.

The story is consistent in quite a few cultures. A protagonist is called by a divine being(s) to build a big ship/boat/ark and stock it full of animals to survive a global flood.

Besides, do all these flood stories that every civilization has happened at the same time?

Its theorized that the area around the Black Sea prior to the flood was very fertile and could have fostered a great deal of people. These people might have scattered afterwords retelling the tale. What they didn't understand was explained in mythological or religious terms.

[finsternis]

The story is consistent in quite a few cultures. A protagonist is called by a divine being(s) to build a big ship/boat/ark and stock it full of animals to survive a global flood.



Its theorized that the area around the Black Sea prior to the flood was very fertile and could have fostered a great deal of people. These people might have scattered afterwords retelling the tale. What they didn't understand was explained in mythological or religious terms.

Could you name this civilizations? Because i never heard of other civilizations other than the Mesopotamian having global flood stories.

[zrweber]

Could you name this civilizations? Because i never heard of other civilizations other than the Mesopotamian having global flood stories.

my last post left you with a link about all the cultures her it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

note astec nota, chinese nuwa, hawa iinu'u

[finsternis]

my last post left you with a link about all the cultures her it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

note astec nota, chinese nuwa, hawa iinu'u

That link is not taking me anywhere. It says that there is no such Article in Wikipedia.

[sephodwyrm]

my last post left you with a link about all the cultures her it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

note astec nota, chinese nuwa, hawa iinu'u

Nuwa is not just flood. It involves the entire heaven breaking apart and the Earth splitting as well. Plus, nearly every major civilization is close to some major river that most certainly flooded. Likewise, Mesopotamia had tonnes of flood myths since the Euphrates and Tigris rivers had a habit of doing that.

Btw, Nuwa solved the flood using clay and magic stones. Its most likely that she was a tribal matriarch that solved the floods by ordering people to build levees or dams (using clay and non-magical stones).

[Richard]

Could you name this civilizations? Because i never heard of other civilizations other than the Mesopotamian having global flood stories.

The Greeks had one (involving a box instead of a boat, but oh well).

[kev-o]

Could you name this civilizations? Because i never heard of other civilizations other than the Mesopotamian having global flood stories.

For one its a theory, so there is little evidence. Civilization anyhow is a relative term in history, since one may say the other isn't a civilized culture or what not.

As for the many myths of the great flood in other cultures, take your pick:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology) If the link doesn't work go to Wikipedia and search for Deluge (mythology)

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/bl.../ax/frame.html

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...nce/flood.html

http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood1.html

[Mithie]

Well, it's entirely possible that Noah only picked the archetypes of each phylum to take with him into the ark, and through the years afterwards, evolution took its course and diversified into the list of species...

Oh...

Oh wait...

[basics]

" No divine assistance is mentioned in the Bible."

This statement is not as true as the writer would have us believe because Scripture does tell us that the pattern and design for the Ark came to Noah from God. It also tells us that God Himself drew all the creatures to the Ark and since they all arrived as required it stands to reason that they set off from where they were at different times.

And none of us know what the land was like then. For all we know God as He did with the Red Sea and the Jordan later could well have made pathways for these creatures, assuming of course that the land then was already separated by waters. You assume too many things by today's world obviously since none of you were around then.

And yes, there are many stories about the flood in many diverse cultures all over the globe. They may well have been contorted according to the beliefs from those days but the point is that they are there. If I am not mistaken American Indians can relate such stories just as the Chinese can, just as the natives of South America do as well as the peoples of the South Seas among others.

Do they have evidence? No, just the culture of passing on what they have learned from their fathers and so on. Some I believe have even pictorial descriptions of the event as the painters of the day saw it from their point of view, but regardless, it's all hogwash to the wisdom of today. Much better to have been an ape at some airyfairy stage than to believe Him who made you and Him whom you will have to justify yourself to.

[jonny duck]

The BBC did a documentary in which they claimed that Noah was simply a rich merchant man caught upon his boat, on which there were several animals, at a time when a large river in the middle east flooded.

Although I find it odd how there are so many deluge mythes from different religions (Atlantis, The tale of Gilgamesh to name just two)

[finsternis]

I just thought of something. I said before that most civilizations that live near a water source have flood stories (makes sense) and then someone told me that they all had the same overall story (big flood, guy with animals).
Well, is it possible that the guy with animals HAS to be there since for people to believe that a great flood came, and still see animals and humans around, then there had to be a human with animals in a boat. And since people in that time attributed everything to divine power, then they said that it was god who did it. Now they need a reason for god doing that, so they said that god wanted to clean the world (there is no better "cleaner" than water).

So as you see, it is possible that there was just a big flood (they live near water, so it makes sense), it killed a lot of people, god did it (of course), they needed a explanation for their god to do so (to clean the world), god is all powerful so the flood had to kill EVERYTHING in the planet (if it didn't, it wouldn't be much of a cleaning), but there are humans and animals around us so a few "pure" ones (chosen by god) had to survive (guy in a boat with animals).
People in that time, however, did not think of plants as living things, so they did not put "plants" in the boat story (since they are not alive, they thought).

So there you have it. But I would like to know of a civilization that did not live near a water source that has a "great Flood" story. Anyone knows any?

[Valiant Champion]

I just thought of something. I said before that most civilizations that live near a water source have flood stories (makes sense) and then someone told me that they all had the same overall story (big flood, guy with animals).
Well, is it possible that the guy with animals HAS to be there since for people to believe that a great flood came, and still see animals and humans around, then there had to be a human with animals in a boat. And since people in that time attributed everything to divine power, then they said that it was god who did it. Now they need a reason for god doing that, so they said that god wanted to clean the world (there is no better "cleaner" than water).

So as you see, it is possible that there was just a big flood (they live near water, so it makes sense), it killed a lot of people, god did it (of course), they needed a explanation for their god to do so (to clean the world), god is all powerful so the flood had to kill EVERYTHING in the planet (if it didn't, it wouldn't be much of a cleaning), but there are humans and animals around us so a few "pure" ones (chosen by god) had to survive (guy in a boat with animals).
People in that time, however, did not think of plants as living things, so they did not put "plants" in the boat story (since they are not alive, they thought).

So there you have it. But I would like to know of a civilization that did not live near a water source that has a "great Flood" story. Anyone knows any?

Whether by God or nature, there was a global oceanic flood, right?. If it took place at the end of the last ice age and the entire ice caps melted you would have had an increase of about 3000 feet in sea level. Considering man has always lived close to water than basically human civilization in 10k bc as we know it would have been wiped out.

It has been hypothesized that these massive global melt offs are rapid and then in a short period of time only a few years the ice caps will reform but not as big as their ice age size.

From my understanding a new theory suggest an asteroid struck the Great Lakes region at the end of the last ice age. That particular area was covered in a mile thick sheet of ice. The heat and glacial melt would have been tremendous.

There is ample evidence such as on the coastline of East Africa of massive oceanic flooding.