Can evolution be fully compatible with Christianity?

[Time Commander Bob]

Ok, from what I understand from Christianity, only humans go to heaven - other animals don't because they weren't create in God's image like humans.

Now, if a Christian accepts evolution and the big bang then God is the cause of the big bang and then has to wait around for 13.7 billion years before his chosen ones come along.

My question is this (towards Christians who accept evolution) at what point does the Christian God look at life on Earth and deem them of being in his image. The whole Homo family or just Homo Sapiens?(someone correct me if it is Homo Sapiens Sapiens rather than Homo Sapiens that is what we currently are)
Additionally, humans will eventually evolve into something that is a different species to Homo Sapiens (if we don't die out) does this mean we would be beyond God's image? Unfit for heaven?

Somehow it seems that the Bible is yet again outdated to apply to deal with problems like this in 2008 AD as it was built on the understanding 2000 years ago.

[Ummon]

Answer = Yes.

[The Good]

Though I believe it was very possible for God to create the universe in a six day period (Earth days), the ancient Hebrew word for "day" does not only mean a literal Earth day, so it could imply either one or the other. However, throughout the rest of the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament), it is used mostly (to my understanding) to mean "day" in our sense. You should choose what you think it means.

[finsternis]

Very interesting point. Maybe god's image changes over time and when we evolve, his image will change too. And when we were Homosapiens, he looked like a homosapien and then we became homosapiens sapiens, then he became homosapien sapien. And when we were a small cell in the middle of the ocean, he was a small cell too. And before life even existed, he did not exist either.

So as you see, we create and change god, not the other way around.

[gambit]

Finsternis raises some good points, although confusing. I always imagined it as something more along the lines of God using evolution like a tool to shape and mold us into his desired goals. Meanwhile he put the animals on their own track and let them do their thing. Maybe we haven't even reached his desired goals yet, hes just taking his time as we evolve. The equivelant of a parent watching his children grow. They go through so many radical changes before they finally fit into a particular mold.

[PacSubCom]

Evolution is incompatible with religion. Everything works without God. No reason for Gods. A God that does nothing is nothing.

[finsternis]

Finsternis raises some good points, although confusing. I always imagined it as something more along the lines of God using evolution like a tool to shape and mold us into his desired goals. Meanwhile he put the animals on their own track and let them do their thing. Maybe we haven't even reached his desired goals yet, hes just taking his time as we evolve. The equivelant of a parent watching his children grow. They go through so many radical changes before they finally fit into a particular mold.

Maybe, but that would contradict the whole "we are made in his image". it is not "we are not his image yet, but we are getting there". Unless god is outside time which means that now, tomorrow and yesterday are at once from god's perspective. Which means that we are already in his image (even though from our perspective, we are not).

[favre4ever]

Or, everything works because of god... its possible

[gambit]

Well, "We are made in his image" and "We are complete in his image" can be seen as different. Perhaps God is 'feeding' us religion just to keep us faithful until we are complete. Now, there is tons of misunderstanding about Gods nature, will, religion in general etc. Perhaps there is some all-knowing answer we simply cant achieve yet, and we will continually evolve to reach that means. Maybe it is as such to make sure we dont become completely atheistic before we can achieve complete understanding and once we, as a whole species, have evolved enough to be completely in Gods image and to completely understand, that is when the tribulation will come and our species will all ascend to Heaven.

You could say why wouldn't God just create us as we should be and it could be we have to 'earn' that image. Maybe only through deep and logical thinking will we finally find the answer and then we are ready. If we are supposed to be for Gods glory, and in God's image then obviously he wouldn't just let anyone be his 'poster children'. God, being a parent to us, would rather we grow on our own and learn through our own mistakes rather than him doing everything for us.

Food for thought, I guess.

[finsternis]

Well, "We are made in his image" and "We are complete in his image" can be seen as different. Perhaps God is 'feeding' us religion just to keep us faithful until we are complete. Now, there is tons of misunderstanding about Gods nature, will, religion in general etc. Perhaps there is some all-knowing answer we simply cant achieve yet, and we will continually evolve to reach that means. Maybe it is as such to make sure we dont become completely atheistic before we can achieve complete understanding and once we, as a whole species, have evolved enough to be completely in Gods image and to completely understand, that is when the tribulation will come and our species will all ascend to Heaven.

You could say why wouldn't God just create us as we should be and it could be we have to 'earn' that image. Maybe only through deep and logical thinking will we finally find the answer and then we are ready. If we are supposed to be for Gods glory, and in God's image then obviously he wouldn't just let anyone be his 'poster children'. God, being a parent to us, would rather we grow on our own and learn through our own mistakes rather than him doing everything for us.

Food for thought, I guess.

Kind of like in Neon Genesis Evangelion?

or maybe like that story that i read in the physics book Hyperspace.

It starts with the humans creating this great PC that knows everything in the planet. Then the humans noticed that the universe is dying (because it is expanding and thus entropy is running out. Without entropy, stars cannot be made and the temperature of the universe will go near absolute zero, and nothing can survive that). So one man ask the PC "can entropy be reversed?" and the PC said "not enough information". Time went by and the humans now control the galaxy and the great PC has become bigger and better and smarter. One man then asked the great PC "can entropy be reversed?" and the great PC said "not enough Information". Time went by and the humans now control great part of the universe and know how to open the Hyperspace. The great PC is now so big that it had to be put in the hyperspace (for no planet was big enough and outer space is too dangerous). No matter how strong they were, the humans still couldn't reverse entropy so one man went and asked the great PC "can entropy be stopped?" and the PC said "not enough information". Time went by and now humans have left their bodies. The now float through space. but they still knew that the universe was dying. So one man went to the great PC (which is now the most intelligent thing in the universe) and asked "can entropy be reversed?" and the great machine said "not enough information" and the human said "gather the information".
Time went by and the universe is dead. And the great PC is still in hyperspace. It did some calculations and done. It gathered all of the entropy and said "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" and there was light...and it rested on the seventh day.

I love that story.

[Ummon]

It is actually one short story written by Isaac Asimov, titled "The last question".

[basics]

Time Commader Bob,

But then you have to believe that God lied to us when He had Moses write down Genesis where creation was made " as is " in six days when in fact, as you assume, it took Him billions of years to accomplish. And then you might have to explain why He, being God, had to do such a thing, when the simple truth would have been adequate for His purposes.

And then if there were no God at all, you might have to explain how it is that DNA has the power to reason what was best for it since it is the main factor of us being what we are. I mean where in that system is there a brain to analyse, to think any further than what it already is?

But if you can accept that an up and running, all functional planet was made in six days then it is quite possible to believe that those within that system will adapt. But to change species altogether is out of the question whether in your system or mine. In mine for example, everything made was for a purpose, that purpose being to bring men and women back into communication with the Creator.

In yours there is no purpose at all. It all hinges on maybe's and might have's, without the central purpose that makes life what it is, that being the hunger for knowledge to better oneself, something that requires a brain and must have done even with a single-celled animal, unless of course it had outside help.

Evolution takes from God what is God's, so therefore there can be no compatiblity. More than that it takes men and women away from what God demands of them and therefore is to be counted as an enemy of God and the Gospel. In other words it denies the Gospel and is therefore another belief that is no belief at all.

Finally, to believe that men were once single-celled things that became creepies on land that became apes that became man, hidden by millions of years, takes a lot of convincing to a man that by prayer has that prayer answered each and every day by the Creator who never really created anything according to evolution and therefore doesn't really exist at all.

[Time Commander Bob]

Finally, to believe that men were once single-celled things that became creepies on land that became apes that became man, hidden by millions of years, takes a lot of convincing to a man that by prayer has that prayer answered each and every day by the Creator who never really created anything according to evolution and therefore doesn't really exist at all.

If God is all-knowing as Christianity says, then if God is the supposed creator of the Big Bang, he would know that if he creates the Universe in a certain way then in 13.7 billion years time it will lead to humans. So in this sense he is created everything just indirectly from a single point. Seems a lot more efficient than creating everything individually if you ask me.

In yours there is no purpose at all. It all hinges on maybe's and might have's, without the central purpose that makes life what it is, that being the hunger for knowledge to better oneself, something that requires a brain and must have done even with a single-celled animal, unless of course it had outside help.

I'll just let you know my position. I don't believe in any God at all, but I know of many here that do and also accept evolution and the big bang. I created this topic with the idea in mind that only humans - according to the Bible - can get into heaven and yet we had very similar ancestors and relatives to us that could use tools, fire and possibly even had art. Didn't one of the Homo species have bigger brains than us?

[IndianPrince]

If there is some one out there who is as complex as to control evolution and bring about the origin of life by setting the perfect conditions and placing earth in that perfect condition then the probability of him/her/it existing is very remote because if someone is that complex then there is need of that designer being designed by someone else. There is no need of God in evolution because Darwin told of us something called Natural Selection. Therefore religion and evolution cannot co-exist ... not a monotheistic-skygod-religion 4 sure. One can argue about Buddhism, but i dont even want to go there.

Prince

[Ummon]

Time Commander Bob, to answer your question:

Neanderthals had bigger brains, but also much bigger bodies. The cephalic index (brain volume/body volume), which is a good sign of intelligence, was therefore lower.

Neanderthals, additionally, were less endowed with frontal cortex, which is essential for metacontrollng behaviour.

[Time Commander Bob]

Time Commander Bob, to answer your question:

Neanderthals had bigger brains, but also much bigger bodies. The cephalic index (brain volume/body volume), which is a good sign of intelligence, was therefore lower.

Neanderthals, additionally, were less endowed with frontal cortex, which is essential for metacontrollng behaviour.

Yeah, that sounds about right. My point was that eventually they become so similar to humans that my question is, where exactly is the line drawn, when we become in God's apparent image (whether physically or spiritually). Especially when you consider that neanderthals may have indeed bred with many humans.

To say we are created in God's image is saying that we are like him in spirit, not in a physical sense.

Would I be correct in saying that only humans have souls/spirits according to Christianity? Or do they simply have less advanced forms? In any case, if we don't die out will the new species retain this said image spiritually as you say modern humans do?

[Ummon]

Yeah, that sounds about right. My point was that eventually they become so similar to humans that my question is, where exactly is the line drawn, when we become in God's apparent image (whether physically or spiritually). Especially when you consider that neanderthals may have indeed bred with many humans?

Interbreeding between Neanderthals and our ancestors is not very likely.

I don't care where the line is drawn, because I have met no Neanderthal. If they were made in the image of God, it was a matter of mind and spirit, not body.

When they disappeared, the thing remained between them and God.

It is not to be excluded that aliens as well, if we ever meet them, are made in the image of God.

[kev-o]

Ok, from what I understand from Christianity, only humans go to heaven - other animals don't because they weren't create in God's image like humans.

Now, if a Christian accepts evolution and the big bang then God is the cause of the big bang and then has to wait around for 13.7 billion years before his chosen ones come along.

My question is this (towards Christians who accept evolution) at what point does the Christian God look at life on Earth and deem them of being in his image. The whole Homo family or just Homo Sapiens?(someone correct me if it is Homo Sapiens Sapiens rather than Homo Sapiens that is what we currently are)
Additionally, humans will eventually evolve into something that is a different species to Homo Sapiens (if we don't die out) does this mean we would be beyond God's image? Unfit for heaven?

Somehow it seems that the Bible is yet again outdated to apply to deal with problems like this in 2008 AD as it was built on the understanding 2000 years ago.

To say we are created in God's image is saying that we are like him in spirit, not in a physical sense. So the question regarding when and why God chose us to be like him is irrelevent since it pertains to the spiritual sense not the physical. As for the big bang and the time leading up to life, its a long long time. But God is considered to be outside of time ergo 13.7 billion years can be a second to God. Catholics have excepted evolution, were as most Protestants have not. I'm a Protestant but I do subscribe to a form of Theistic evolution. The problem that is often brought up with this is "if evolution occured, then were does original sin come from?" I believe that to be based on free will.

[kev-o]

Would I be correct in saying that only humans have souls/spirits according to Christianity?

Yes, you're correct.

Or do they simply have less advanced forms?

No.

In any case, if we don't die out will the new species retain this said image spiritually as you say modern humans do?

The physical may evolve but the spirit doesn't.

[Syron]

Yes, you're correct.



No.



The physical may evolve but the spirit doesn't.

If that is the case, who had the first soul?