Knights, Gunpowder, Armour...

[Susurrus]

A couple of things before I start:

i)I'm really enjoying this mod.. The quality of the work has really surprised me (not played many fan-made mods for any game, so didn't know what to expect). I've registered to post this, in the hope that I can help you improve some more.
ii) I may have put this in the wrong section, and if I have, I'm very sorry, but wasn't sure where to post it.

I've been playing a mixture of the late and renaissance preview campaigns over the last few days, and the thing that has come most to my attention are knights, particularly the mounted variety.

i) They are so so hard to kill, particularly for infantry. Now, I understand that knights were juggernauts, very hard to stop and the elite of any army for so long. But, playing as Venice, I've been mobbing units of knights with either several units of Venetian Heavy Infantry, or spears and heavy infantry, or often using the non-knight cavalry unit who's name escapes me at the moment, to rear charge, and against even one unit of chivalric knights, I'm still losing as many times as I'm winning. I've even thrown my General's bodyguard unit into the fight, and sometimes he doesn't tip it even..

I think this problem may stem from the altered attack values (well, if you see this whole thing as a problem). Being much lower, Infantry do a lot less damage on the charge, and when attacking. The problem is that for an infantry unit to simply sit and receive a charge from a knightly unit more often than not results in a VERY dead infantry unit. Now, whilst I'm not suggesting that one unit ought to be able to take the knights, it seems like they're too hard, even when being mobbed.. This leaves you with almost no options beyond moving to knights yourself, or making sure you have such overwhelming force that one knightly unit carving up your troops isn't such a problem.


ii) I'm not sure how much editing you have left to do, particularly of renaissance and gunpowder units, but even arqebusiers have very little effect vs. cavalry. Given that gunpowder was what led to the phasing out of heavy armour, and indeed heavy cavalry, and in particular knights, this seems counter-intuitive. I've had a 60-strong unit of arqebusiers fire into the REAR of a chivalric knight unit at close to medium range (and please note, their formation was only two men deep, so that's 30 shots in one volley), and they did no damage. Indeed, the damage they did to cavalry over several volleys amounted to about 2 dead knights.. In fact, arquebusiers are far more likely to make a unit of knights break than they are to kill even 25% of it, given unlimited time firing at them.

Whilst I appreciate the idea that knights are formidable opponents, they seem to be TOO strong vs. almost every other unit, making the choice of units really a no-brainer.. Which leads to unimaginative play. Obviously, this is only my opinion, and I am aware that knights are expensive, but even so, it seems ludicrously hard to kill them, even with weapons which really shouldnt struggle too much..

[DaVinci]

First of all, welcome to this forum

The unit balance is a bit changed in the meantime. Just try the upcoming update.

However, we had have a few discussions and also threads here about those themes (which give always potencial for an ongoing discussion and of course for improvements).
Please first scroll through this subforum and try to find them, then i can save my efforts here

[Napoleon1853]

A couple of things before I start:

i)I'm really enjoying this mod.. The quality of the work has really surprised me (not played many fan-made mods for any game, so didn't know what to expect). I've registered to post this, in the hope that I can help you improve some more.
ii) I may have put this in the wrong section, and if I have, I'm very sorry, but wasn't sure where to post it.

I've been playing a mixture of the late and renaissance preview campaigns over the last few days, and the thing that has come most to my attention are knights, particularly the mounted variety.

i) They are so so hard to kill, particularly for infantry. Now, I understand that knights were juggernauts, very hard to stop and the elite of any army for so long. But, playing as Venice, I've been mobbing units of knights with either several units of Venetian Heavy Infantry, or spears and heavy infantry, or often using the non-knight cavalry unit who's name escapes me at the moment, to rear charge, and against even one unit of chivalric knights, I'm still losing as many times as I'm winning. I've even thrown my General's bodyguard unit into the fight, and sometimes he doesn't tip it even..

I think this problem may stem from the altered attack values (well, if you see this whole thing as a problem). Being much lower, Infantry do a lot less damage on the charge, and when attacking. The problem is that for an infantry unit to simply sit and receive a charge from a knightly unit more often than not results in a VERY dead infantry unit. Now, whilst I'm not suggesting that one unit ought to be able to take the knights, it seems like they're too hard, even when being mobbed.. This leaves you with almost no options beyond moving to knights yourself, or making sure you have such overwhelming force that one knightly unit carving up your troops isn't such a problem.


ii) I'm not sure how much editing you have left to do, particularly of renaissance and gunpowder units, but even arqebusiers have very little effect vs. cavalry. Given that gunpowder was what led to the phasing out of heavy armour, and indeed heavy cavalry, and in particular knights, this seems counter-intuitive. I've had a 60-strong unit of arqebusiers fire into the REAR of a chivalric knight unit at close to medium range (and please note, their formation was only two men deep, so that's 30 shots in one volley), and they did no damage. Indeed, the damage they did to cavalry over several volleys amounted to about 2 dead knights.. In fact, arquebusiers are far more likely to make a unit of knights break than they are to kill even 25% of it, given unlimited time firing at them.

Whilst I appreciate the idea that knights are formidable opponents, they seem to be TOO strong vs. almost every other unit, making the choice of units really a no-brainer.. Which leads to unimaginative play. Obviously, this is only my opinion, and I am aware that knights are expensive, but even so, it seems ludicrously hard to kill them, even with weapons which really shouldnt struggle too much..

Id have to agree with you on all of your points
The MOD is fun, but I think it needs some tweaking
I too found it odd when firing at close range at knights..that the bullets magicly bounced off them for little casualties....guns where innacurate I realize but not so much at close range
And I watched the bullets ..many of them hit the Knights...Knights wear armour so shouldnt it be penetrated by the bullets? cuz it doesnt seem that is happening...

[JaM]

Maybe apply RC values would be good idea - in RC no Ranged weapon (with one exception for pistol) have AP value - instead, they have higher damage - so for example crossbow had 7-10, Arquebuse 16-18, Musket 24-30 etc... Even Gendarmes in armor 20 are vulnerable to musket fire...

DaVinci: Really suggest to check Point Blank EDU mod, units are perfectly balanced, weapons works as in reality,or as close as it is possible to do...

[DaVinci]

Maybe apply RC values would be good idea - in RC no Ranged weapon (with one exception for pistol) have AP value - instead, they have higher damage - so for example crossbow had 7-10, Arquebuse 16-18, Musket 24-30 etc... Even Gendarmes in armor 20 are vulnerable to musket fire...

DaVinci: Really suggest to check Point Blank EDU mod, units are perfectly balanced, weapons works as in reality,or as close as it is possible to do...

The point is that this mod here is balanced with a global view, and there is no file that is 100% exclusively modded as neutral and isolated from the campaign balance (this includes the edu of course).

As said our mods have a special balance, and this will stay in this manner, also it is one of the so to speak trademarks, perhaps you know Chivalry I TW?

If you play here the most balanced campaigns (ie. the Early era) you'll might see interesting differences in the global outcome from other mods that have not such special attempts ... but i don't say it's already perfect, this M2/Kingdoms project is pretty young in this regard, and'll get still a lot updates in several relations of the balance (thing is atm. that the current balance is not very updated since internal 2.7, but it will be with the next major mod update).

[JaM]

DaVinci: I checked your EDU and it looks like you have inconsistent armor upgrades - One upgrade is equivalent of 2-2.5 armor points. Some of your units are just one point away,which makes earlier units have better armor example - Mailed knights vs Feudal Knights - Mailed Knights have armor 9 and are upgradable to heavy mail (level 3) which will make them 11 after that upgrade.
Feudal Knights starts with armor 10 as level 3 armor...

Any unit that starts with 0 armor and is upgradable to level higher than 1, will have same protection as unit with proper 2 armor points and level 1. So for example if you have Arquebusiers start with 0 armor and your upgrade level is light mail, they will get +2 armor effectivly. Unit that starts with 0 armor and is upgradable to leather will have same amount of protection, or if upgradable to light mail (0, 1, 2) then it will have armor equivalent 4-5 points.

We spend a lot of time testing how armor upgrades works in M2TW,( i almost stopped playing game because i was mad about it), after many tests was found that one upgrade add +2 points nothing more. And it doesnt mather what description says.


another thing - you can forget about any missile upgrades - they are bugged - instead of +1 to missile attack, they add +1 to melee instead...

[DaVinci]

Well, did you try to forward those test-observations to the M2 developers?

Normally, if these bugs exist as you describe, then it should be easy to solve them, for the developers. It needs just an access to the source-codes, which we haven't.

[ivanhoex]

hello

was bored and fiddling around the forums, i kindda need a late era mod coz i play exclusively deus lo vult mod and its kindda hard reaching late era..


well, the fact is that i made a sheet to work with the EDU file. (find the link at my signature) it helps modders to categorize the troops in their edus and set values according to what they feel will be best to their own mod gameplay.

values in the table and units are according to DLV 5.6 beta, so they might not be quite useful to you.

anyway i have found those values to be quite fun and fair.


there is also a lot of edu talk about how to achieve certain things at the first post and several interesting discussions after that one, so its a bit of a EDU faq too.


anyway, if you think the sheets are useful and want to ask me any questions about em just pm me and i will send you my msn




about muskets, the idea is that a musket shot should have AP bonus and be at least the same amount of damage as that of the heavier armor around. (bullets dont calculate shield nor defense skill), that way, if unit is hit, chances of a casualty are high. if casualties are too high then change accuracy. it looks and behaves better this way.

[JaM]

DaVinci: Did that several times in the CA forum,but got ignored everytime...

btw that missile upgrade is easilly observable in game, just check stats before and after upgrade...

[DaVinci]

Here on TWC are a few members who are CA staff - try to adress the observations to them, with the question if they get a consideration in any way, that is my recommendation.

We'll take them in consideration, thanks.