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  1. #1

    Default Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    From The Times

    August 13, 2008


    Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Opinion is hardening against the Kremlin. For all its bluster, it is weak and vulnerable

    Richard Beeston

    Rarely have Russians had such cause to celebrate their hero. One minute Vladimir Putin was in Beijing mixing with Russian athletes on the opening day of the Olympics. Moments later he reappeared in the Caucasus, sleeves rolled up and directing a victorious counter-attack against his arch-rival Mikhail Saakashvili, the Georgian President. Fleeing refugees and wounded civilians were comforted. Generals saluted smartly as they were sent off to battle. No one was left in any doubt that Mr Putin, rather than the absent President Medvedev, was still firmly in charge of the country.

    In the space of only five days the Russian Prime Minister succeeded not only in smashing the Georgian Army but also teaching all those in the “near abroad”, as Russia refers to its neighbours in the former Soviet empire, a painful lesson about challenging Moscow in its own backyard.

    The decisive action was in sharp contrast to the response in the West. The war in Georgia exposed deep divisions in the transatlantic alliance and revealed the impotence of the Bush Administration in protecting its closest friend in the region.

    Respect is something Mr Putin and many of his countrymen believe they lost when the Soviet Union broke apart 17 years ago. They may now feel that over the past few days some of that loss has been restored.

    For Russians sunning themselves on the Mediterranean or enjoying the long summer evenings at their dachas in the countryside, this is the plausible narrative faithfully repeated by the state-controlled media.

    "Russia may have smashed its tiny neighbour but victory will come at a heavy price. The war will reduce rather than increase Russia's stature abroad, where the Kremlin faces growing isolation."

    Unfortunately, the conclusions they draw are completely wrong. Russia may have smashed its tiny neighbour but victory will come at a heavy price. The war will reduce rather than increase Russia's stature abroad, where the Kremlin faces growing isolation.

    Since the emergence of the modern Russian state during the Yeltsin years in the 1990s, the country has been regarded as chaotic and corrupt but broadly peaceful and certainly no serious threat. Back in 2003 Condoleezza Rice, the Russophile US Secretary of State, famously advised President Bush to “forgive” Russia for its stand against the Iraq war, while France was punished and Germany ignored.

    To judge by the language of both US presidential candidates responding to the Georgian war, forgiveness is no longer an option. Democrat or Republican will take a much harder line towards Russia over its aggressive foreign posture, its increasingly autocratic Government and the inescapable conclusion that Mr Putin is determined to remain in power indefinitely.

    "The events in the Caucasus will only serve to harden opinion against Russia at Nato and in the EU."

    The Europeans may seem divided, but behind the bland statements calling on both sides to stop the recent fighting something significant has happened. Six European leaders, five of them from the former Soviet bloc, chose to stand side by side with Mr Saakashvili yesterday as he struggled to remain in power. The events in the Caucasus will only serve to harden opinion against Russia at Nato and in the EU.

    The mini-war in Georgia may have surprised some Europeans, but it was expected weeks ago by British Intelligence. Thanks to the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, the ex-KGB officer who was poisoned in London by suspected Russian agents nearly two years ago, Britain has completely reassessed its relationship with Moscow. MI5, which reports that Russian agents in Britain are now back at Cold War levels, regards Russia as the third most serious threat to British security after terrorism and nuclear proliferation. Attempts to rehabilitate relations have faltered and the recent treatment of BP by its partners and the Russian authorities has only reinforced the view that Russia cannot be trusted.

    Flush with billions from the sale of oil and gas, the Kremlin may calculate that it does not need allies in the West and would rather be respected and feared than befriended.

    Anyone who has seen the Russian Army operating in the Caucasus knows that the military will need a generation to modernise.

    That too would be a serious mistake. For all its big-power bluster, Russia is weak and vulnerable. Russian tanks and aircraft may have smashed the fledgeling Georgian Army with ease, but most of the weaponry was Cold War-era and many of the troops conscripts. Anyone who has seen the Russian Army operating in the Caucasus knows that the military will need a generation to modernise. Meanwhile America, and its main Nato allies, are decades ahead in military technology and combat experience.

    Russia is also facing a severe demographic crisis. Its population is shrinking by 700,000 people a year. The UN estimates the population will fall below 100 million by 2050, down from around 146 million today.

    As for the economy, it is booming thanks to natural resources that account for 70 per cent of the country's wealth. But the oil price is in a state of flux. Russia has failed to diversify. Should energy prices fall sharply, the economy could collapse, as it did a decade ago.

    Mr Putin once described the collapse of the Soviet Union as the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. Trying to resurrect it could be the greatest folly of the 21st.

    Richard Beeston is foreign editor of The Times

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4517727.ece
    Last edited by cherryfunk; August 13, 2008 at 09:17 PM.



  2. #2

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Yep. It's a fact that this war did not help Russia in anyway.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by whhyy View Post
    Yep. It's a fact that this war did not help Russia in anyway.
    I think that depends. If they keep up with beating Georgia while their down, they're set to only lose from the conflict. But if they quit while their still (getting marginally) ahead, they will have given Georgia and future sable rattlers the scare they wanted imposed, And the west will be very carefull with promising protection to a country prone to provoking future conflict with Russia.

    You could quickly see the outrage towards Russia subside when the dust settles, and the choice between supporting squabbling over contested territory or improved relations with Russia has to be made.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    While I obviously agree with the article, this was a surprise to me:

    Anyone who has seen the Russian Army operating in the Caucasus knows that the military will need a generation to modernise.

    Then I saw footage on CNN of two drunk Russian soldiers strolling into Georgia and blathering to the CNN camera crew, and I realized their army really must be a mess. They're drunk while conducting an invasion? Seriously?



  5. #5
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Then I saw footage on CNN of two drunk Russian soldiers strolling into Georgia and blathering to the CNN camera crew, and I realized their army really must be a mess. They're drunk while conducting an invasion? Seriously?
    Worked in WW2, I guess it still works today.

  6. #6
    rusina's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobolight View Post
    Worked in WW2, I guess it still works today.
    I guess if you were drunk at red army in times of WW2, you got shotted.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    While I obviously agree with the article, this was a surprise to me:

    Anyone who has seen the Russian Army operating in the Caucasus knows that the military will need a generation to modernise.

    Then I saw footage on CNN of two drunk Russian soldiers strolling into Georgia and blathering to the CNN camera crew, and I realized their army really must be a mess. They're drunk while conducting an invasion? Seriously?

    Yeah, that part made me go wtf... There is no doubt that this is a serious blow for them.

    It does have something though, the most nuclear weapons in the world, modern army or not.
    "Falcon Punch!" - Super Smash Bros.
    Братство и јединство

  8. #8

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Probe View Post
    It does have something though, the most nuclear weapons in the world, modern army or not.
    True, I believe that at the height of the Soviet Union when it came to the Cold War stockpile, the Soviets had something like 48,000 nuclear warheads. Since they have disarmed over 30,000 of them. That's a good thing

    Nuclear energy is far more productive than nuclear warheads. The US has also disarmed a large amount for the same purpose. Lets just cool it til their all disarmed, then take to open conflict!!! Reason being, I like to watch it, but I don't wanna get bombed.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Screw Russia, frigging drunks wouldn't stand a chance against NATO.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Anyone who has seen the Russian Army operating in the Caucasus knows that the military will need a generation to modernise.
    Umm, the Russian army in the Caucasus was modern enough. By 2020, the Russian army will be of NATO quality.

    Then I saw footage on CNN of two drunk Russian soldiers strolling into Georgia and blathering to the CNN camera crew, and I realized their army really must be a mess. They're drunk while conducting an invasion? Seriously?
    These were South Ossetians. I doubt the Russian's would be drunk, as they have dicispline.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    These were South Ossetians. I doubt the Russian's would be drunk, as they have dicispline.
    LoL Russians and discipline
    You mean the same soldiers who beat their comrade so hard he lost his legs and genitals?
    The disciplined Russian army with dedovschina, highest suicide rate on world and officers driving in stolen Merc.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Xam Enyap View Post
    LoL Russians and discipline
    You mean the same soldiers who beat their comrade so hard he lost his legs and genitals?
    The disciplined Russian army with dedovschina, highest suicide rate on world and officers driving in stolen Merc.
    Dedovschina is a serious problem, but it is being dealt with. It was worst in the 90's.

    Besides, a Russian officer driving a stolen mercedes? I have yet to see some proof.
    Last edited by Nikitn; August 17, 2008 at 08:00 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Yes, silly. All Russians are drunks. Srsly though, the main Russian advantage in South Ossetia was greater logistics.

  14. #14
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by whhyy View Post
    Yes, silly. All Russians are drunks. Srsly though, the main Russian advantage in South Ossetia was greater logistics.
    No. The Russian advantage was greater numbers, in all aspects. However this numerical advantage on serves you well if you are facing an inferior enemy, who is completely incapable of achieving air supremecy, and who isn't very advanced in the field of infomational and electronical warfare. NATO best the Russians in all these fields and the only real advantage Russia has is its vast nuclear arsenal, which again is useless unless Mr. Putin wants to end Mankind.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    This is really absurd.

    GORI, Georgia -- Throughout the day Wednesday, refugees poured out of this strategic Georgian city, recounting tales of atrocities committed after Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers rolled in from the north.

    Then, late Wednesday night, the commander of the Russian contingent, Gen. Vyacheslav Borisov, drove up in a Mercedes with Georgian license plates to the Russian army checkpoint at the entrance to the city and reported that everything is peaceful and under control.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1218..._us_whats_news
    The commander of the Russian forces is looting private property?

    The commander? And this is supposed to be a modern, professional army?



  16. #16

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    This is really absurd.


    The commander of the Russian forces is looting private property?

    The commander? And this is supposed to be a modern, professional army?
    He, he I guess the "Davai cheas, davai palto" (Russian for "Give me your watch, give me your coat" - an expression used to depict the looting practiced by the Red Army in WW2) has never left the proud Russian military tradition.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MareNostrum

  17. #17
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    This is really absurd.


    The commander of the Russian forces is looting private property?

    The commander? And this is supposed to be a modern, professional army?
    quit posting nonsense.

    Rest of the rational guys - please dont feed the trolls. some of the users here are clearly crying for attention. lets not give them any.

    Throw away all your newspapers!
    Most of you are Libertarians, you just havent figured it out yet.

  18. #18
    pajomife's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    This is really absurd.


    The commander of the Russian forces is looting private property?

    The commander? And this is supposed to be a modern, professional army?
    Maybe the Russian soldiers have loot in some occasions, but certainly was not a general looting,not for sure, as a looting that the US are doing in Iraq.
    Across the ages it was normal,now is not correct,but is better than mass murders and rapes.


    Destroying a country,then using those country resources,the oil( the main reason for the US "fight for freedom" now days),to pay the Americans
    companies to rebuild those destroyed country.
    By chance, and only by chance, those companies had direct involvement of influent people in the US state department.And you talk in a vulgar field commander?

    About professional armies,do you mean,the Russian army are manly conscript,so they don't know how to fight?
    There are several professional armies,the Executive Outcomes,Blackwater,Sandline International and the US Army.
    All of them earn much money to make war far from their land,and its elements also.

    Well , if money end,...the love for their nation ends to?

    The conscript Russians will not have this problem.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Last edited by metenojo; August 14, 2008 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Double Post

  20. #20

    Default Re: Strutting Russia is heading for a fall

    Quote Originally Posted by pajomife@iol.pt View Post
    Maybe the Russian soldiers have loot in some occasions, but certainly was not a general looting,not for sure, as a looting that the US are doing in Iraq.
    Across the ages it was normal,now is not correct,but is better than mass murders and rapes.


    Destroying a country,then using those country resources,the oil( the main reason for the US "fight for freedom" now days),to pay the Americans
    companies to rebuild those destroyed country.
    By chance, and only by chance, those companies had direct involvement of influent people in the US state department.And you talk in a vulgar field commander?

    About professional armies,do you mean,the Russian army are manly conscript,so they don't know how to fight?
    There are several professional armies,the Executive Outcomes,Blackwater,Sandline International and the US Army.
    All of them earn much money to make war far from their land,and its elements also.

    Well , if money end,...the love for their nation ends to?

    The conscript Russians will not have this problem.

    You said ,the American army figth for the money,and no pay,no gain?

    Sory DP again,is my mobil.

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