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  1. #1
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    Default Hell -- Why?

    First of all, my dad wrote this the other day, and I mostly just wanted to post it here, as it describes very well my own position (or lack thereof) on the idea of hell. See, the typical "Christian" idea of hell immediately puts forth an obvious flaw in the typical "Christian" theology. If God is good, and all-powerful, how could He let Man whom He created, to go to "hell". This question is perfectly logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by my Pa
    I don't believe in hell any more. In fact, I never did believe in it even when I thought I believed in it. No sane human being can live with Dante's image of endless torment, not only for a Hitler or a Bin Laden, but for every aunt and cousin and friend who has not said the Sinner's Prayer. Nevertheless, so many churches still embrace the doctrine that to avoid a heretic's fate, I resorted to two popular coping mechanisms:

    First (and probably the most popular) was to simply not think about hell. Tucked safely in some dark closet of my mind, the idea was brought out only under interrogation, or when some heathen badly offended me and I sought comfort in the anticipated vengeance of the Lord.

    Second was to embrace a sort of Calvinist theology. Here I found a venerable bulwark of thought that defused the horror of hell by casting it as part of God's perfect plan for the world. Calvin taught that God predestined some to destruction; who am I to question his choice? If God is good (all the time) then it must be a good thing for him to send some to hell. In the rarefied intellectual atmosphere of Calvinism, I easily dismissed my doubts as naivety. It would all make sense someday.

    While these schemes seemed to handle the problem on the surface, they did nothing to restrain the cancer from its internal destruction. The dark specter of a vengeful God tarnished for me every glimmer of his love. My mind might be sure of my election, but my heart found no comfort in the hope of heaven, for it did not know the sweetness of the God of heaven.

    It might seem that I had to change my mind about hell before I could believe in my heart that God was truly good, but it was actually the other way round. His love pursued me, overtook me that day in Virginia, and turned me onto a new path to his heart. Eventually, on this journey of discovering the God I never knew, the subject of hell had to be revisited.

    One tranquil sunny afternoon, as I reflected on things changed, he opened that closet. In broad daylight, I faced the rickety skeleton of my theology: "I believe that we must accept Christ before we die, or be damned to endless agony and torment in hell. Satan reigns there, rubbing his hands in anticipation, for most of us will go to him. The way is narrow and few will find it, only those lucky enough to hear a decent presentation of the gospel. The ones who are repelled by Christian pharisees or brimstone zealots will get their due. It's iffy for the proselytes of cults and churches with bad doctrine, or for the savage, the comatose, the insane. Basically, the devil wins."

    Startled and staring at this mess, I thought "This cannot all be true." It was a moment of epiphany. The wave of peace that washed over me brought the Father's answer "It's not."

    Not yet altogether trusting waves of peace, and wanting to be a good Berean, I set about studying the Scriptures. I found support for the traditional hell notion pretty weak. I could more easily prove that God will "destroy the wicked" or that Christ's death "leads to justification and life for all men."

    I did not find a new theological model to explain it all. Perhaps God does not intend that we find that in the Bible. It is enough that he has dismantled my old model and given me a new joy and hope in his love and mercy. God's love for his children, and his suffering on our behalf, are immeasurable. It will indeed all make sense someday.


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  2. #2

    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    God is something that is aside from what we are told, it must be found for oneself; as he describes.

  3. #3
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    When you do certain things and acquire certain habits, existence is suffering. Not because of some cruel plan, because of the consequences of your choices.

    If there is life after death, this suffering can only persist.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    "If God is good, and all-powerful, how could He let Man whom He created, to go to "hell"."

    Simple. Hell is like God, it was always there and you cannot stop is from being there. He does love his people, but if they sin they put themselves on a path to hell. He tries to stop them, but they don't listen.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    Simple. Hell is like God, it was always there and you cannot stop is from being there. He does love his people, but if they sin they put themselves on a path to hell. He tries to stop them, but they don't listen.
    But, you are saying that God would create Man with a soul, that is eternal, and then allow Man to miss his chance and suffer eternally, simply because, well.. no one got him to "accept Christ"? This cannot be the God I know.

    You say "Hell is like God" so do you mean Hell is beyond God's control, in other words God is not omnipotent, and also if Hell is like God, Hell was not created, so.. Hell is like the equal and opposite of God?


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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Some believe that Hell is eternal seperation from, and complete absense of, God, and you only condemn yourself to it by rejecting him and his love. In other words its not a geological location but rather a state of existence without God.

    Or there's always a Muslim Hell, where you serve your time and then get your eternal reward.
    The very impossibility in which I find myself to prove that God is not, discovers to me his existence.

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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    When necessary, you can find anything in a Holy Book.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    The problem with the whole 'you go to hell if you do not accept and love and follow god" is that there isn't a lot of choice. It is a "follow me or suffer" doctrine. And a all-loving god would not do that. A all-loving god would let anyone who is good go to heaven (even if they did not believe in him). Millions of people never even heard of Christianity, it is a bit unfair that they go to hell for that.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Hell, why not!
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    "You say "Hell is like God" so do you mean Hell is beyond God's control, in other words God is not omnipotent, and also if Hell is like God, Hell was not created, so.. Hell is like the equal and opposite of God?"

    Hell is the physical representation of Evil. Its 'messenger' (personified) is temptation (Satan, the Devil, if you will). Temptation, as was shown in the Garden of Eden, is the enemy of God, and is therefore Evil. Tempation drags you away from God, and therefore into Hell. God, afaik, is not omnipotent, but omniscient. He put a little bit of himself into humans when he made them, so although they are special, they also have the ability to stray from his will, through temptation, something which can only be attributed to humans, as can heaven. People who know nothing of God are also excluded from heaven and hell, as they are like animals, they were not made as God's own, but as his image, and therefore are like modern art = pointless . This is why racism occurs between Christians and others, they misunderstand this. That is also evil, and they will be punished for it.

    That is my understanding, anyway.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  11. #11
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Because without Hell, I'd be the biggest there would ever be.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    Because without Hell, I'd be the biggest there would ever be.
    Interesting....are you moral only because of your fear?
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    Because without Hell, I'd be the biggest there would ever be.
    I'm not sure quite what you mean, but are you saying that fear of hell is the only thing that stops you from running rampant doing whatever you want?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Hell doesn't have to be all pain and suffering. Like Dante's Inferno, there could be different levels in which people are punished in relation to their sinfulness. People like Hitler could occupy the lower levels where punishment is excruciatingly brutal, while virtuous non Christians might be in a level with some luxuries and no torment. If there is a god, surely he wouldn't group all sinners into one category and hand them the same punishment.

    So, you see it could work.

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Some believe that Hell is eternal seperation from, and complete absense of, God, and you only condemn yourself to it by rejecting him and his love. In other words its not a geological location but rather a state of existence without God.
    That is in fact Orthodox Christian theology, and goes back to the very beginnings of Christianity. In fact, that is the very classic Christian theological position on 'hell'. What Westerners often think of as the 'typical' theology regarding hell dates back to the Middle Ages at the earliest, and has since been developed in the Protestant Reformation and thereafter. Eastern Christianity however maintains the original Christian view of hell (this is easily demonstrated, because the Christians of the early centuries did actually record this).

    In Orthodox Christian theology, Hell is not a place. Indeed, God always loves everyone, even the people who are 'in Hell'. However, God also loves us enough to allow us to have free will, and ultimately does not force people to be saved or not. God continues to love us after we die and end up in Hades (Jewish Sheol) awaiting the Last Judgment, but the key thing is how we experience this love. If we have used our freedom to accept God's love and love God in return, then that is fine, and we shall be resurrected along with the Heavens and the Earth. If, however, a person rejects God's love, they still experience it, but they experience it as a burning fire because they have made it hateful to themselves. Yet God loves them nonetheless, and it is considered possible that those people tormented in Hades by the fires of their own creation may be relieved of their sufferings and even reconciled with God (which is why Orthodox Christians pray for the dead, unlike Protestants).

    There is so much of Western, Protestant theology that makes very little sense, because it has almost completely cut itself off from the heritage of Eastern Christianity (and let us not forget that Christianity was born in the East). I say this myself as a Westerner and an ex-Protestant.

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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Hell makes baby Jesus cry.

    It strikes me that a God who will send you into eternal suffering for the honest exercise of the intellectual facalties he gave you (i.e. the damnation of all principled atheists, agnostics and people who simply pick 'the wrong god/doctrine', aka almost everyone) is no God I'd want the 'love' of in the first place.

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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    Hell makes baby Jesus cry.

    It strikes me that a God who will send you into eternal suffering for the honest exercise of the intellectual facalties he gave you (i.e. the damnation of all principled atheists, agnostics and people who simply pick 'the wrong god/doctrine', aka almost everyone) is no God I'd want the 'love' of in the first place.
    He doesn't send you, you send yourself there through your own actions. God doesn't want anyone going to hell, but if you're wholly committed to it, then sucks to be you.

  18. #18
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    He doesn't send you, you send yourself there through your own actions. God doesn't want anyone going to hell, but if you're wholly committed to it, then sucks to be you.
    I loled hard.
    I see, so God sets up the game, doesn't tell you the rules, and let's you play it blind folded in full knowlege that a lot of people are going to end up in the hell camp. But noooooo he didn't send anyone to hell, cos any one of the individuals could theoretically have made a few blind decisions to get into the heaven camp (ignoring the fact that according to most hell believers there are large segments of people who could never have gone to heaven since they were never exposed to the necessary means of salvation).

    If I go to hell, I'm blaming it squarely on God for not telling me the rules.

  19. #19
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    I loled hard.
    I see, so God sets up the game, doesn't tell you the rules, and let's you play it blind folded in full knowlege that a lot of people are going to end up in the hell camp. But noooooo he didn't send anyone to hell, cos any one of the individuals could theoretically have made a few blind decisions to get into the heaven camp (ignoring the fact that according to most hell believers there are large segments of people who could never have gone to heaven since they were never exposed to the necessary means of salvation).

    If I go to hell, I'm blaming it squarely on God for not telling me the rules.
    God writes the Ten Commandments on all of our hearts. Everyone is given a fair chance. If somebody is never exposed to Christ, yet lives to the commandments God has written on everyone's hearts, they will still go to heaven.

    The more you are given, the more is expected of you, and vice versa.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Hell -- Why?

    ummon

    mind if i pick you up on this one from near the start of the thread...

    If there is life after death, this suffering can only persist.
    how can one feel pain without a body and a nervous system? pain is subjective even in the human condition, so if pain was induced on a purely mental plateaux it would not take much to overcome it.

    i suppose the suffering could be mental anguish carried on from life, perhaps heaven is where all things have been resolved.
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