Crisis in S.Ossetia. Who's to blame?

[alhoon]

Now that the crisis seems to be over, at least for now, I would like to listen to cool headed opinions from people that respect the other posters.

More specifically I would like to listen to what people believe on the following:

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

- Do you think that EU and USA did enough for the hostilities to end?

- Do you think that if there wasn't a strategic oil pipeline in the region EU and USA would care?

- Do you believe that we will see Russia in the future using her mighty army to get what she wants?

- Do you believe that Saakashvili did what he should have done for the interests and benefit of his country?

- Do you believe that the Georgian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

- Do you believe that the Russian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

I know it sounds retarded, but I wanted to vote: all of the above.

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

Everyone. Georgia initiated the hostilities by killing peacekeepers and leveling the town. Russia invaded and did heavy damage to Georgia.
USA mostly said to Russia: "Come on now, stop." and "Stop or else!" and "Stop! This time we mean it!". Russia on the other hand, wanting like a spoiled, immature child to show it's superiority ignored USA completely, killing people until EU stepped in with a plan. As if the USA proposals were so much different.
Also thinking back to Sudan and Rwanda where worse atrocities have happened and mostly none cared, I think that EU and USA treated Georgia not as a nation of people but as "the land around the oil pipe line".


[quote=alhoon;3493596]
- Do you think that EU and USA did enough for the hostilities to end?[/qupte]
No, and no by far. EU could have stepped in earlier. It was quite clear that the Russian / American vendetta was preventing Russia to go away since it was coming from USA. Both countries acted like spoiled children not wanting to let down their toy so the other couldn't take it.
Guess what: These power games costed human lives. Georgian and Russian lives.
USA should have backed its allies more. Not with war obviously, but making sure the Georgian goverment knew what was coming for them in case they provoked Russia long before the crisis. You, back when they supported him to become president. Or when they asked Georgians to die for them in Iraq.

- Do you think that if there wasn't a strategic oil pipeline in the region EU and USA would care?

Not at all. Everyone would be "ouch... a mess. OK, what's going on in the Olympics?"

- Do you believe that we will see Russia in the future using her mighty army to get what she wants?

I'm afraid so, although I'm not as fast to judge. we will see in the future.

- Do you believe that Saakashvili did what he should have done for the interests and benefit of his country?

I believe exactly the opposite.

- Do you believe that the Georgian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

Yes. Saakashvili should be tried, by his own people and they can decide if they want him or not. I believe the Ossetian smoking ruins are his fault.

- Do you believe that the Russian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

Yes. There was a proposed Cease fire! Georgians have lost the war and retreated from Ossetia. Eeeeeveryone recognised how tough the Russians were. Why to keep bombing Georgia for two days afterwards?




NOTE: An apology if I offended anyone or anyone's country with my post. I have nothing against all nations involved in general, but I was watching news and dead bodies so I may have been in a more... hot mood than usual.

[Vladimir Lenin]

What if you want to blame Separatists for shelling Georgian villages? Do I just check that off as Russia?

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

Separatist shelling. Followed by Russian invasion.

- Do you think that EU and USA did enough for the hostilities to end?

Not really.

- Do you think that if there wasn't a strategic oil pipeline in the region EU and USA would care?

Yes.

- Do you believe that we will see Russia in the future using her mighty army to get what she wants?

We always will.

- Do you believe that Saakashvili did what he should have done for the interests and benefit of his country?

Yes, he responded to rebel attacks, stopped them, and made greater strides to breaking ties with Russia.

- Do you believe that the Georgian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

I don't believe so.

- Do you believe that the Russian goverment is responsible for war crimes?
I think they might be.

[Viking Prince]

What if you want to blame Separatists for shelling Georgian villages? Do I just check that off as Russia?

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

Separatist shelling. Followed by Russian invasion.

Since all "facts" in this are sketchy at best -- I will bite.

Separatists shell Georgian villages and then ...

Georgia fires on Russians acting in a mutually agreed peacekeeping roll and in the process kills and wounds many. Can you explain how this makes sense or how this gets Georgia of the hook?

For your "fact" to make any sense -- more is certainly needed.

I am not saying this did not happen, since we do not really know. Just wondering how it fits into the general scheme of things?

[Pyrebound]

I don't know. I think it would be Georgia and the separatists to blame, I don't believe that Russia exactly caused it.

But, why can't countries give independence to people that want it? Are those two rebellious rocky areas that precisious to Georgians?

[Burnum]

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

The cause is Russian Imperialism, hence, Russia primarily responsible.

- Do you think that EU and USA did enough for the hostilities to end?

No.

- Do you think that if there wasn't a strategic oil pipeline in the region EU and USA would care?

Yes.

Do you believe that we will see Russia in the future using her mighty army to get what she wants?

When have not used force to get what they want from smaller countries?

- Do you believe that Saakashvili did what he should have done for the interests and benefit of his country?

He tried to stop the Russia from Annexing South Ossetia.

- Do you believe that the Georgian government is responsible for war crimes?

Too early to tell

- Do you believe that the Russian government is responsible for war crimes?

Same as above.

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

The cause is Russian Imperialism, hence, Russia primarily responsible.

the cause is US/NATO Euro-Atlantic imperialism, hence....

[Holger Danske]

the cause is US/NATO Euro-Atlantic imperialism, hence....

What a bunch of utter Rubbish.. Get over the fact that NATO didn't let you commit genocides as you pleased and kicked the hell out of your nation...

[Baron Vlad Felix]

What a bunch of utter Rubbish.. Get over the fact that NATO didn't let you commit genocides as you pleased and kicked the hell out of your nation...

What a bunch of rubbish you say!
That's not genocide, it is a masacre. You will never know...you didn't live in Serbia.I would like someone to bomb your country for 3 mounths, and maybe then we can talk.pus.....

[Vladimir Lenin]

Now that the crisis seems to be over,

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/vid...2Bin%2BGori%2B

It's really not over....

[Viking Prince]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/vid...2Bin%2BGori%2B

It's really not over....

So now the paramilitary separatist thugs are taking advantage of the situation to at least loot and perhaps attempt so ethnic cleansing. If the Russians are still there, they ought to shoot them.

Too bad the poll does not allow for them to be included in a choice. Pox on them all. The civilians suffer while geopolitics burns the province to the ground.

[Łukomski]

Both are guilty... I'm more pro-Georgian than pro-Russian in this conflict and I'm supporting territorial integrity of Georgia but they could integrate their rebel territories wiser and without all of those bangs and fireworks in Ossetia... Russians on other hand are oversensitive and too much agressive about small things, and matter of fact they even were more and more escallating this conflict for such stupid reason, how more stupid can be being on the edge of the WWIII because of fights over a 70 000 population region, to which in fact Russia has no rights...

[zligor]

Georgian president. If he really wanted to bring back South Ossetia he could have done that in a different way. If he decided five years ago to be russian ally and not russian enemy SO would be today be part of Georgia without any violence. Instead he continued provoking Russia for that past five years. And he attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers in SO. Russia is doing the only thing it can do. You cannot solve problems through confrontation like he`s trying to do, but through cooperation, diplomacy etc.

[Flavius Nevitta]

Voted "all of the above":

Reasons:

I don't see this conflict as something that started a few days ago. It took a long time to evolve and there were several things I'd like to point out:

(I make this short and simple for now as I don't have much time atm):

We all know that Russia handed out passports and supported seccessionist attitudes (not the appropriate way to act as a peacekeeper in a foreign territory imho). Georgia attacked (wtf where they thinking?).

The West:

the peace treaty was signed in 1992. The west accepted Russian peacekeepers and from then on mainly decided to ignore the conflict. What significant things did they do since then? Nothing. Seems like the West and Russia had no problem with the status quo but no one actually tried to solve the conflict. "Leave it like it is until the problem solves itself". While the West sent mission after mission to the Balkans to protect minorities, investigate genocides, and whatever else they completely ignored the Kaukasus. Why didn't they send another UN mission to SO to support the Russian and Georgian peacekeepers (and keep them in check)? No, pats of the West were more interested in selling weapons to Georgia and get them into Nato than to solve the conflict.

With a bit of pressure on Georgia and Russia maybe a solution could have been found over the last 17 years. And you should be able to influence your ally so he won't start unneccessary wars.

The other thing is the US undermining UN authority in 2003. I remember the discussions here before the Iraq war and how many Americans screamd around because of wmd and how stupid we Europeans are, that we're worthless allies and that they have to act without us to save the world. I remember me and many others pointing out that such an action would seriously harm the UN. Now we see what has happened. The Russians moved in with the argument: "If they can, why shouldn't we?"

[spartan117]

Voted "all of the above":

Reasons:

I don't see this conflict as something that started a few days ago. It took a long time to evolve and there were several things I'd like to point out:

(I make this short and simple for now as I don't have much time atm):

We all know that Russia handed out passports and supported seccessionist attitudes (not the appropriate way to act as a peacekeeper in a foreign territory imho). Georgia attacked (wtf where they thinking?).

The West:

the peace treaty was signed in 1992. The west accepted Russian peacekeepers and from then on mainly decided to ignore the conflict. What significant things did they do since then? Nothing. Seems like the West and Russia had no problem with the status quo but no one actually tried to solve the conflict. "Leave it like it is until the problem solves itself". While the West sent mission after mission to the Balkans to protect minorities, investigate genocides, and whatever else they completely ignored the Kaukasus. Why didn't they send another UN mission to SO to support the Russian and Georgian peacekeepers (and keep them in check)? No, pats of the West were more interested in selling weapons to Georgia and get them into Nato than to solve the conflict.

With a bit of pressure on Georgia and Russia maybe a solution could have been found over the last 17 years. And you should be able to influence your ally so he won't start unneccessary wars.

The other thing is the US undermining UN authority in 2003. I remember the discussions here before the Iraq war and how many Americans screamd around because of wmd and how stupid we Europeans are, that we're worthless allies and that they have to act without us to save the world. I remember me and many others pointing out that such an action would seriously harm the UN. Now we see what has happened. The Russians moved in with the argument: "If they can, why shouldn't we?"

Agree completely

[pannonian]

Reopened.

[Dr. Croccer]

Georgians. They've been fighting Ossetians since 1989, it was only time before Russia grew a pair and stepped in before things got even more ugly.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

NO COMMENT!

[phowa]

Now that the crisis seems to be over, at least for now, I would like to listen to cool headed opinions from people that respect the other posters.

More specifically I would like to listen to what people believe on the following:

- Who you think is to blame in this crisis that costed so many lives?

- Do you think that EU and USA did enough for the hostilities to end?

- Do you think that if there wasn't a strategic oil pipeline in the region EU and USA would care?

- Do you believe that we will see Russia in the future using her mighty army to get what she wants?

- Do you believe that Saakashvili did what he should have done for the interests and benefit of his country?

- Do you believe that the Georgian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

- Do you believe that the Russian goverment is responsible for war crimes?

-Well i think Russia and Georgia are both responsible.

-There isn't much EU or USA can do to stop Russia but they managed to get a cease fire which is better than them still at war.

-Yeh if the Pipeline wasn't there nobody would care.

-Probably not she cant go South China is their then to the West you have the ever expanding NATO and EU.

- He is justified trying to get the region back but trying to level a city was just the wrong way to go about it.

- Not sure.

-Not sure

[Yuri Orlov]

Why can't we just blame the Jews.....
Was esier in the god old days, then you could blame then for anything..

your hat got stolen... the jews...

store closed.... the jews....

or perhaps the muslims are to blame?

[pwf224]

Russia baited the Georgians into their trap. It was well executed on the Russians part. Tey had been massing troops near the border for a few months now on "training exercises" and whatnot. They then started granting citizenship to s.ossetians. Their final move was to get the seperatists to antagonize the georgians who then responded with military force. Russia was then able to "protect its (new) citizens" and the war started. I would say both gov'ts have some fault in the development of the crisis, but the Russians definately stirred the pot the most.