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  1. #1
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Welcome, one and all, to Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5! For those of you who were even around long enough to have seen TTT episodes #1-4, you’ll know that it’s been a VERY long time between #4 and #5. I was unable to find anything for a bit (almost a year), but at long last, here it is!

    For those who haven’t seen the TTTs before, you can see episodes #1-4 by clicking on the appropriate link in my signature.

    So, let’s get right to the good stuff! Huzzah!

    Which religious item are you reviewing today?

    Today, I’m covering a handy little booklet that covers the procedures in the Traditional, or Tridentine mass. Some of you may also know it as the Latin mass.

    For those who don’t know that much of Church history, the Tridentine mass was officially codified circa the 300s AD, and was the ONLY thing to be said in the entire Christian world, until the arrival of the Protestant Reformation.

    Even then, the Catholic Tridentine mass continued on unabated, until the arrival of the second Vatican Council during the 1960s, in which the mass was changed into the mass you see today in the Catholic churches all around the world.

    What’s the point of learning about the Tridentine mass if it was changed into the Vatican II mass?

    Good question. There are actually several reasons to study the Tridentine mass.

    - Regardless if you are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, of another religion, or are just plain atheistic, the Tridentine mass is a treasure trove of historical insight into the way Catholic masses were said for nearly 1600 years! It has little, if at all, changed since that time, and you can see firsthand how people worshipped at mass.

    - The Tridentine mass was said throughout the world in Latin. A pilgrim could go to Rome and hear the same mass he was hearing in France. Everything, except the priest’s homily, was entirely in Latin. This brought an excellent uniformity to the entire Catholic church. It also gives you a chance to practice your Latin, for those so inclined.

    - The Tridentine mass is still said to this day! The Vatican II mass is certainly dominant by a large margin, but there are still churches around the world that practice the Tridentine mass. This little booklet helps those who are curious about the Tridentine mass and are curious to attend one, but are afraid of the unfamiliar proceedings, to feel more comfortable and to follow along.

    - If you attend a Catholic church that practices the Tridentine mass in a country that predominantly speaks English, you will probably find this little red booklet. It is published by a group called Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei, which sends these books to Tridentine mass churches.
    The Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei can be contacted at PO Box 2071, Glenview, Illionis, zip code 60025-6071. Their phone number is (847) 724-7158. You can visit them at their website www.ecclesiadei.org.

    Enough! Get on with the pics!

    Yes, yes, here we go. Here’s the cover of the booklet:



    And here’s the back of the booklet, which describes the difference between the three types of masses one encounters during the Church Liturgical year, based on the religious day involved:



    As you go through the mass, you follow along and turn the pages in time with the Priest’s statements, as well as that of the altar boys/the laity (which is you and me sitting there in the pew).
    The left side is what is actually being said, that is, the Latin:



    And on the right side is the English translation, for those who don’t know any Spanish/Italian (and thus can make out the gist of the sentences):


    Here’s another part of the mass, when the Priest is offering up the Eucharist. Again, the left side is in Latin, the right side in English:





    At the back of the booklet, you have some a few songs that the choir sings during the course of the Mass, if there is any at all, as well as some supplementary information. Here is one such page:



    And that’s the instructional booklet for the classical Tridentine Mass, performed for approximately 1600 years, published by Ecclesia Dei!

    As always, I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I did making it for you all, and if you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask. Just keep in mind that this is mostly an educational thread, not so much one for debate.

    Your humble theologian,

    Thanatos

  2. #2

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Very nice post Thanatos ! In my city there's a splendid church that still pratices the Tridentine mass. Though I never remember seeing those handy booklets. I have a few questions I hope you can answer

    -In the Tridentine mass doesn't the priest almost never face the "people" unlike the post Vatican II masses?

    -In the Examination of the Conscience, "The Sin of Sodom" was homosexuality or deceit?

    Kinda vague but why do some churchs still practice the Tridentine mass, are they going against the Church's word if they do so?
    The very impossibility in which I find myself to prove that God is not, discovers to me his existence.

    -Voltaire

    Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from the inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves.
    -Mitch Albom, The Five People You Meet in Heaven

  3. #3
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    1) Yes, you are correct. Both the priest and the laity face the altar where the Eucharist is.

    2) Sodomy generally refers to any sort of unbelievable wickedness or depravity, although it is often used to refer to homosexuality.

    3) No, the Tridentine mass is allowed. Before, you could perform it with the permission of the Bishop in your archdiocese, but thanks to Pope Benedict XVI, any priest can perform it now, provided the church he resides in is suitable for the Tridentine mass.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    What do the P and the S mean?
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
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  5. #5
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by finsternis View Post
    What do the P and the S mean?
    Where, sorry?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    In the book, it says P, then it says something
    Then it says S, then it says something
    Then it says P again.

    In the first page
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
    "You cannot convince a man who cannot convince himself that he might be wrong"-Finsternis
    “The great mass of people will more easily fall victim
    to a big lie than to a small one.”
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    There are two kinds of people who don't care about politics: the ones too dumb to care and the ones too smart to care" - Finsternis

  7. #7
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by finsternis View Post
    In the book, it says P, then it says something
    Then it says S, then it says something
    Then it says P again.

    In the first page
    Oh! Wasn't quite sure where you were looking at.

    P stands for Priest. S stands for the servers, the Altar Boys who assist the priest in the mass.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Thx. Didn't know there were church commandments (I knew there were church rules, but not that they had the title commandment).

    Funny with commandment number 6 (about not marrying someone who is not catholic)
    I just saw a movie called Brideshead Revisited in which a woman couldn't marry this guy cuz he was Atheist (and she was catholic) even though they loved each other and had sex.

    Really good movie.
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
    "You cannot convince a man who cannot convince himself that he might be wrong"-Finsternis
    “The great mass of people will more easily fall victim
    to a big lie than to a small one.”
    -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf(1925)
    "
    There are two kinds of people who don't care about politics: the ones too dumb to care and the ones too smart to care" - Finsternis

  9. #9
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by finsternis View Post
    Thx. Didn't know there were church commandments (I knew there were church rules, but not that they had the title commandment).

    Funny with commandment number 6 (about not marrying someone who is not catholic)
    I just saw a movie called Brideshead Revisited in which a woman couldn't marry this guy cuz he was Atheist (and she was catholic) even though they loved each other and had sex.

    Really good movie.
    *shrugs*

    People sin all the time, what can I say?

  10. #10
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    If I'm ever in CA Thanny I'll sit in a Latin Mass with you, I've always wanted to see one.

    And I'm technically still Catholic so I can drink some of that delicious sacramental wine

    Yeah but that looks like one of the Missal books I used to read over and over in church...because there was nothing else to do.

    Besides replace "God" with "Bob" in the songs.

  11. #11
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    If I'm ever in CA Thanny I'll sit in a Latin Mass with you, I've always wanted to see one.
    I'll hold you to that, bro.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    I would like to go to a Latin mass to. I love Latin Chants. They are so inspiring and powerful.
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
    "You cannot convince a man who cannot convince himself that he might be wrong"-Finsternis
    “The great mass of people will more easily fall victim
    to a big lie than to a small one.”
    -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf(1925)
    "
    There are two kinds of people who don't care about politics: the ones too dumb to care and the ones too smart to care" - Finsternis

  13. #13
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    I'm glad you guys find interest in my fifth publication. Thanks!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I'm glad you guys find interest in my fifth publication. Thanks!
    Just noticed the #5 in the title. lol
    I just searched your other treatises.
    I love the bible you showed in the first one. it is so fancy looking.
    And it has a lot of images! My bible just has tiny little images every now and then .
    And way less footnotes. lol
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
    "You cannot convince a man who cannot convince himself that he might be wrong"-Finsternis
    “The great mass of people will more easily fall victim
    to a big lie than to a small one.”
    -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf(1925)
    "
    There are two kinds of people who don't care about politics: the ones too dumb to care and the ones too smart to care" - Finsternis

  15. #15
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    screw vernacular!!!!

    Bring in the latin

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  16. #16

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    more than others words I would like to see your personal treatise on this subject-- I expected analysis !!!!

  17. #17
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    more than others words I would like to see your personal treatise on this subject-- I expected analysis !!!!
    The Treatises are more of a review than a true analysis. For things Catholic, I tend to leave it up to the doctors of the Church.

    It's not that I'm being blind towards whatever they say, it's just that I don't find anything wrong with their ideas.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    I buy old bibles if you guys want to steal any from your local church.

  19. #19
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    The Tridentine Mass is all well and good, but what about the epiklesis? What have you Latins done with that, eh?

    It's the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom for me, or the Liturgy of St Basil if I'm in a patient mood (the Liturgy of St James only if I'm in a very patient mood).

    One of the things that I disapprove of in the traditional Latin mass is that it must be said in Latin. The use of the vernacular language instead of Latin is one of the few things the Catholic Church has done in recent years to move back towards its Orthodox Christian heritage. In Eastern Orthodoxy we have had a long history of translating the Liturgy, Scriptures etc. into local languages, such as Slavonic, Arabic, Romanian, Coptic, Georgian and, in the last few hundred years, languages such as English, French, Japanese, Chinese, and even Aleut (the native tongue of Alaska, a province that was first evangelised by the Russian Orthodox). I don't see why Latin should be enforced on peoples who do not speak it or have any cultural connection to it.

    I do think, incidentally, that people should learn Latin and Greek if possible, because so much of the Christian tradition comes from Latin and Greek (especially Greek) sources, yet it helps people understand and engage with their faith so much better if they can understand the language of prayer naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos
    The Treatises are more of a review than a true analysis. For things Catholic, I tend to leave it up to the doctors of the Church.
    I must say that it has occurred to me in the past that 'treatise' is not such a good name for this sort of article. A 'treatise' is generally an essay in which someone propounds their own academic position, offering their own analysis and conclusions. What you have here is a theological review. But well-written, as ever.
    Last edited by Zenith Darksea; August 13, 2008 at 06:53 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Thanatos's Theological Treatise #5

    zenith in your opinion what makes the litany of the orthodox better or greater than the latin mass?

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