Russia saved our asses in WWII?

[Desperado †]

Ok, we hear some Americans going on about how they saved us in World War II, but think about it, didn't Russia save us all? Because WWII their casualties outnumbered everyone else put together? And if it hadn't of been for Hitlers massive defeat in Russia, he would probably of held his other fronts?

Russia didn't join in, and it was Hitler fault attacking, but I mean Japan attacked America first.

Maybe this is a bad time to post this with the Georgia/Russia war...

[conon394]

No - I simply doubt that such a completly brutal and negative state such as Nazi Germany could have ever pacified Europe and Russia sufficiently to manage a trans Atlantic invasion.

In any case Nazi racism had already provided the US with means of relative security via an atomic option Germany did not have.

[xzyx]

No - I simply doubt that such a completly brutal and negative state such as Nazi Germany could have ever pacified Europe and Russia sufficiently to manage a trans Atlantic invasion.

In any case Nazi racism had already provided the US with means of relative security via an atomic option Germany did not have.

ahn...a good part of the atom bomb was developed only because of the german scientists abducted in the war (there were american too, butif they didn't need germans to make it, they would just kill them or whatever)...

[FarKenal]

ahn...a good part of the atom bomb was developed only because of the german scientists abducted in the war (there were american too, butif they didn't need germans to make it, they would just kill them or whatever)...

Thats so very true, Im not sure if many people realise this but the US had actually taken the research for the atom as far as they could around some time in April 1945, and could not get the damned thing to actually explode.

It was however not until the German U-boat U-234, that had secretly been enroute to Japan as a result of the Allies closing in all around Germany and their imminent surrender, that the captain abondoned their secret mission, and on board was uranium and key scientists. And it was actually these scientists who later told the US officials about their own research and how to successfully develop the triggers to detonate the bombs.

So without the research conducted by the Germans, the US atom bombs would of been the worlds most expensive paperweights. In addition to the fuses was sufficient uranium for two atom bombs, (strangely enough at a time when top secret US documents comment that they have barely enough for one). In addition to this aboard U-234, there was over 1,100 tonnes of uranium captured by the US in a salt mine of the German city Strassfurt in the final days leading up to Germanys surrender.

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/U.htm

This is but one of many hundreds of sites that can tell you all about it. Its just that its only been in the last decade that ex US army officials have been able to tell/leak their stories. So if you ever come across some smart ass who tells you that even if the war had of lasted longer that the US could just drop nukes on Germany or Japan anyway, just tell them to go......do some reading

[Legio XII]

No - I simply doubt that such a completly brutal and negative state such as Nazi Germany could have ever pacified Europe and Russia sufficiently to manage a trans Atlantic invasion.

In any case Nazi racism had already provided the US with means of relative security via an atomic option Germany did not have.

Ok, so do you really think that we could have defeated a Germany that was free to concentrate all of its troops in the west? In the campaign in France, there were nearly 3 million Allied soldiers engaged in the fighting against 1.5 million Germans. Had Germany been able to concentrate the troops on the Eastern Front in western Europe instead, there would have been nearly 3.5 million troops in occupied western Europe(1.5 million in Western Europe, plus the roughly 2 million troops the Germans had on the Russian front at any one given time). In addition, the fortifications of the Atlantic Wall would have undoubtedly been much stronger, without having to compete for resources being devoted to the Eastern Front. It is possible that victory might have been achieved, but at what cost? Both America and Britain would have had to shoulder the burden of casualties that was borne by Russia.

And, if you are thinking of putting forth the argument that Germany could have eventually been blockaded into submission, you are mistaken. Part of the non-agression pact between the Soviet Union and Germany was economic. Germany was free to, and did, purchase raw materials from the Soviet Union prior to invading it. It would be a quite reasonable assumption that they would have continued to do so if there had been no invasion of Russia. If you are skeptical of this fact, read the book "The 900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad".

As to your point about Racism, you seem to forget that America had its own racist attitudes at the time, and in some areas, still does. A further point in this direction is that there was in fact a Nazi Party in America, with several influential supporters, among them Joseph Kennedy, father of JFK and RFK. This is not to say that the Nazi Party would have come to power in America; it is simply a fact that America was not as un-racist as you seem to have insinuated.

And, to the atomic question, you should be made aware of the existence of a German nuclear program, which was rather advanced in 1943 until allied saboteurs destroyed the heavy water processing plant in Telemark, Norway, one of the few and most productive in German hands. While it has been concluded by most scholars that the Germans were not anywhere close to having a bomb by the end of the war, it is again worth wondering if that would be the case had not 2/3 of German resources been devoted to fighting Russia. That is to say, America's dominance in this field was not always assured.

So, yes, Russia was absolutely vital to victory.

[Desperado †]

No - I simply doubt that such a completly brutal and negative state such as Nazi Germany could have ever pacified Europe and Russia sufficiently to manage a trans Atlantic invasion.

In that case nobody saved our asses, because we didn't need saving.

[conon394]

In that case nobody saved our asses, because we didn't need saving.

Hmm that's not what I said...

That Germany could have conquered Russia and Europe - maybe, perhaps even likely (if the US really sat on it's hands).

That the Germans could hold said gains and invade NA/SA that is what I'm questioning...

edit: - given the nature of the Nazi state/empire/or what ever the brutal-evil-venial-idiot-fools wanted to call it...

[Dr. Croccer]

Hmm that's not what I said...

That Germany could have conquered Russia and Europe - maybe, perhaps even likely (if the US really sat on it's hands).

That the Germans could hold said gains and invade NA/SA that is what I'm questioning...

Other way around actually. Hitler never wanted to conquer Britain and conquering and holding Russia was simply impossible, even if the Nazis were smart enough. If the Russians never took part than the Nazis would have more time to concentrate on other fronts. They could have broken Britain and maybe even ally with her. Without Britain as a landing ground, and with over 6 million extra Gerries and probably over 10.000 extra tanks, a transatlantic invasion would have been incredibly hard, even for the US's economic strenght.

[Otsman]

Other way around actually. Hitler never wanted to conquer Britain and conquering and holding Russia was simply impossible, even if the Nazis were smart enough. If the Russians never took part than the Nazis would have more time to concentrate on other fronts. They could have broken Britain and maybe even ally with her. Without Britain as a landing ground, and with over 6 million extra Gerries and probably over 10.000 extra tanks, a transatlantic invasion would have been incredibly hard, even for the US's economic strenght.

hitler was going to completely wipe out the slavs (like the jews) and reinhabit russia with 'aryan' settlers, and russia would provide plently of grain and oil for the new germany hitler had invisioned

[Dr. Croccer]

hitler was going to completely wipe out the slavs (like the jews) and reinhabit russia with 'aryan' settlers, and russia would provide plently of grain and oil for the new germany hitler had invisioned

Which is still silly because the majority of Russian oil reserves are on the other end of the AA-line, with exception of the Caucasian oil reserves, which Hitler couldn't reach after Stalingrad turned against him. And they destroyed large parts of Russian infrastructure meaning that rebuilding whilst in a war economy was going to be long and hard. Also, I doubt the Russians would simply quit if Moscow was taken over and not just relocate to Siberia and use their reserves there to continue the war.

[Dr. Croccer]

Yes, Hitler wasted over half of his infantry and nearly all of his armour on the Russians. Hitler became completely obsessed with the front and ignored others, like that in Africa. The Russians conquered the important oil fields in Romania as well. If not for the Russians, fighting the Germans would have been far harder and the war would have gone very differently. It was due to the Russians that the Germans couldn't concentrate more on Britain, Africa and the Western front.

[duda]

Russians at Stalingrad saved our asses...It was hitlers first defeat...Imagine if hitler attacked Russia in spring...He'd have conquered everything in europe apart from GBR by winter...Then he'd conquer GBR...Luckily, hitler wasn't smart enough and wanted to beat Russia in winter... LUCKILY


England would've been kicked out of africa if the germans sent their reinforcements in africa...BUT BECAUSE OF RUSSIA, all reinforcements were sent to Russia

[Rich86]

I think everybody saved everybody

[duda]

I think everybody saved everybody

No no, I fail to see how the French and Americans saved anybody...GBR and RUSSIA deserve most of the credit...(concerning europe, not japan)

[Mr. Scott]

No no, I fail to see how the French and Americans saved anybody...GBR and RUSSIA deserve most of the credit...(concerning europe, not japan)

moron. the Russians did nothing compared to the Us. Ever wondered why before the fall of the berlin wall western europe and western germany prospered under the american influence while eastern germany and eastern europe went into the gutter?

[conon394]

GBR and RUSSIA deserve most of the credit

Sort of on GBR’s part but really Russia folds without the aid of the western allies, and the we that benefits needs to be tempered with the asterisk of allowing Stalin to roll into Europe…

edit: and that still presupposes a US invasion of Europe. If the US had aspired to nothing more than crushing Japan and preserving the British I don't see how the USSR really makes a diffrence aside from one big difficult insurgency for the Germans to deal with while freezing in winter.

[René Artois]

Sort of on GBR’s part but really Russia folds without the aid of the western allies, and the we that benefits needs to be tempered with the asterisk of allowing Stalin to roll into Europe…

edit: and that still presupposes a US invasion of Europe. If the US had aspired to nothing more than crushing Japan and preserving the British I don't see how the USSR really makes a diffrence aside from one big difficult insurgency for the Germans to deal with while freezing in winter.

actually the british and americans sent lots of supplies and equipment to the russians.

[Odovacar]

No one saved anybody...
Maybe the inhabitants concentration camps were saved, or the people Hitler condemned or would have condemned to servitude and genocide...
But nations "saved" bye SU became servants again.

Everyone was fighting for his own sake. While USA did not make the liberated nations and lesser allies to his thralls, USA spread its influence over free Europe. So eventually they benefited from the war.

[Kleos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Le...veries_to_USSR
"For example, the USSR was highly dependent on trains, yet the desperate need to produce weapons meant that only about 92 locomotives were produced in the USSR during the entire war. In this context, the supply of 1,981 US locomotives can be better understood. Likewise, the Soviet air force was enhanced by 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft)"

If any one nation can claim to have "saved" us all, on balance I think the US has the best claim. Of course it is by no means clearcut, remove any of the three main players from the equation and Nazi victory turns from a possibility into a probability.

[LegionnaireX]

No no, I fail to see how the French and Americans saved anybody

OK, anyone putting the United States on the same level as the French in WWII is either

a) ignorant

b) irrationaly anti-american

c)both

From the sound arguements put forth in the thread I created it is clear that the United States did not single handedly beat Hitler. It is also clear that Europe needed US aid and eventually troops to when the conflict. But the US deserving as little credit as the french for defeating Hitler? Please.