Christian Forum Stifles Debate Shock

[Broken Pope]

So, with the majority of contributors to this site being agnostic or atheist, I tend to find that the religious voices get a bit drowned out in most of the debates we have here. I thought I'd check out some Christian web forums to see if I could get some sustained, reasoned responses to the various logical contradictions and intellectual curiosities presented by a supernatural belief system.

I read some thoughtful arguments on the 3 or 4 sites I looked at. They tended to have a 'how do I deal with godless heathens' sub-forum or a sub-forum for members who were having crises of faith.

I was quite surprised at the number of intelligent, well-informed contributors.

What I should not have been surprised at was that in each case, you can only join the forum and post on it if you a Christian. (In one case there was even a process of approval to weed-out the non-believers).

Now I appreciate that people use those forums as a social hub and as a refuge for mutual support. I get all that and I appreciate it.

I know that there would be idiots who would spam their message-boards and deliberately upset people, and it would create a headache for their moderators.

But - and this is my point (for those of you who assumed that I was simply babbling away to no real end) - there should be at least one area on one of those sites which allows free debate and contributions from non-Christians.

I know what they would say: 'our faith is none of your concern'.

I'm afraid it is. It was clear from the content I read that the people on those forums; charming, reasonable, intelligent, compassionate (doubtless) caring and educated people believe that my eternal soul is doomed for all eternity and that I will burn in hell for my sins. They think that. It is not some crazy cult, these were the first forums Google suggested when I typed in 'christian discussion boards'.

These are ordinary people with whom I will deal in the normal course of my life professionally and socially. They may live next door to me or end up as my boss.

How can anybody say that I do not have the right to try to influence their beliefs when they think that about me?

If somebody said you were worthless and then closed off all further discussion on the subject, you'd be pretty upset I expect. Well, if you're atheist or agnostic these people have done exactly that.

And don't try telling me: 'they simply pity you as a sinner, and want you to repent'. There is no way you can view yourself as 'saved', look upon another person as an 'unsaved sinner' and not feel morally superior to them on some level. Even to be pitied I find patronizing and absurd.

Why are we not allowed to reason with these people? Surely they should welcome the opportunity to win people over and create fresh converts? ... Or do they perhaps fear they would lose more souls to reason than they would save by dogma?

Can anyone of a Christian persuasion explain the anomoly? :hmmm:

[Rich86]

Why are we not allowed to reason with these people? Surely they should welcome the opportunity to win people over and create fresh converts? ... Or do they perhaps fear they would lose more souls to reason than they would save by dogma?

That's precisely it. It's not hard to be 'right every time' if you don't allow the opposition a voice now is it?

I would say obviously not all Christians behave like this, but the whole "don't question my faith" and "my religion goes BEYOND science" exscuses do seem to be a common theme....one that is no more mature/grown up than effectively sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

[Ummon]

That's probably exactly the same reason why you find atheists starting countless joke-threads about religion here, and feeling the need to add a series of deep comments about how funny it was. Or why atheists repost the same fallacies again and again counting on numbers instead of logic to assert victory.

People like to group based on their belief sets. A side effect of us being social animals.

[morteduzionism]

These are ordinary people with whom I will deal in the normal course of my life professionally and socially. They may live next door to me or end up as my boss.

I was denied employment because the supervisor found out that I wasn't a god fearing christian...

At a state/public university...

That's probably exactly the same reason why you find atheists starting countless joke-threads about religion here, and feeling the need to add a series of deep comments about how funny it was. Or why atheists repost the same fallacies again and again counting on numbers instead of logic to assert victory.

Are you implying that faith (i.e. the basis for your beliefs) is based on logic?

[Ummon]

Are you implying that faith (i.e. the basis for your beliefs) is based on logic?

No. The basis of my beliefs is not based on logic, just like that of your lack of belief.

[morteduzionism]

No. The basis of my beliefs is not based on logic, just like that of your lack of belief.

umm, What's your definition of "logic"?

[zrweber]

Are you implying that faith (i.e. the basis for your beliefs) is based on logic?

Yes!

It's been a while and this will be my only post sinse i really don't have time to be online anymore.

Anyway, the word logic is rutimentually.

[craziii]

I was denied employment because the supervisor found out that I wasn't a god fearing christian...

At a state/public university...


Are you implying that faith (i.e. the basis for your beliefs) is based on logic?

you didn't suit? if you can prove it, suit the out of him + the university. your life would have been set. that is blatant religious discrimination.

[Rich86]

There is but one way to be Christian and it is God's way,

How do you decide what is 'God's way?' Surely it's always going to be your interpretation - and that will obviously differ from other people's interpretations? Who is right?

people use it as a reason for the nonexistence of a supreme being.

I think few would claim that the FSM example is a 'reason' for the nonexistence of God - it is a humurous attempt to show what silly things can be conjured up when extraordinary claims are made without any scientific evidence.

[morteduzionism]

How do you decide what is 'God's way?' Surely it's always going to be your interpretation - and that will obviously differ from other people's interpretations? Who is right?

Here's another question. How do they know it's god at all? Unless they've hung out with a god and can differentiate a god, from an angel, from a demon, from a devil, etc etc etc...how would they ever know*?

Even if a human figure appeared before you, floating 3 ft. above the ground in a white robe, etc etc etc...

How could anyone say with absolute certainty that it indeed is god.
_________________________________________
*I asked someone who had said he'd met god during a NDE (near-death-experience), his response (like some others I asked) was, "I just knew." ...He went on to say as a believer he could tell......isn't that like Bush seeing into Putins soul?

If this was true that believers could just tell when they were in the presence of a god, why would there be any worry about being tricked by the devil?

[Leutrim]

I was denied employment because the supervisor found out that I wasn't a god fearing christian...

At a state/public university...


Are you implying that faith (i.e. the basis for your beliefs) is based on logic?

Logic on faith.

[Broken Pope]

That's probably exactly the same reason why you find atheists starting countless joke-threads about religion here, and feeling the need to add a series of deep comments about how funny it was.

Faith is amusing to an atheist. What you term 'joke threads' tend to be arguments by way of reductio ad absurdum. To us there really is no better reason to worship the Invisible Spaghetti monster or to pay homage to the mysterious 'Hank' than there is to adopt faith in Brahma or God.

But I deliberately voice that as a point of view rather than a line of argument because I don't want to let this thread turn into another load of 'is there? / isn't there?' piffle.

People like to group based on their belief sets. A side effect of us being social animals.

Thats true. But atheists love to try to reason with Christians. Nothing can be so certain of ratching up 10 pages of replies in no-time-flat as a post headed: 'Why Jesus Loves You' (or similar). I would like to see Christians become as excited as atheists by objective rational debate.

As you said yourself - those are just two 'belief sets' right?

[Ummon]

Faith is amusing to an atheist. What you term 'joke threads' tend to be arguments by way of reductio ad absurdum. To us there really is no better reason to worship the Invisible Spaghetti monster or to pay homage to the mysterious 'Hank' than there is to adopt faith in Brahma or God.

One root of politeness is the ability to keep one's subjective views, correct or mistaken that they are, for oneself, until proven (and even after they are, in some situations). I would also add that, I do not approve of Christians keeping their arguments for themselves, just as I do not approve the lack of respect behind such jokes.

On the other hand you see, human beings are fallible.

For a dissertation on the probability of metaphysical items, you may check my last discussion with Darth Wong.

But I deliberately voice that as a point of view rather than a line of argument because I don't want to let this thread turn into another load of 'is there? / isn't there?' piffle.

Which unfortunately would be the premise of any supposed right to post the jokes you have just defended.

Thats true. But atheists love to try to reason with Christians. Nothing can be so certain of ratching up 10 pages of replies in no-time-flat as a post headed: 'Why Jesus Loves You' (or similar). I would like to see Christians become as excited as atheists by objective rational debate.

As you said yourself - those are just two 'belief sets' right?

You mistake reiterated reproposition of wrong and misunderstood tidbits of philosophy and science, for reasoning.

Besides, you see, I do reason with atheists very often. Few of them can see the difference (although some can).

Should I judge all atheists by this simple fact, or else assume that as with most human characteristics, intelligence and openmindedness have a normal distribution in the population?

[The Colonel]

Well, like you said, we want a forum free of any athiests, and its a CHRISTIAN FORUM. just like how you would find isalmic forums, buddhist forums, athiest forums. if its a forum by and for christians, what gives you the right as an athiest to barge in and start telling people off? that's like goin into somebody's house and telling them how to run it.

[Broken Pope]

Well, like you said, we want a forum free of any athiests, and its a CHRISTIAN FORUM. just like how you would find isalmic forums, buddhist forums, athiest forums. if its a forum by and for christians, what gives you the right as an athiest to barge in and start telling people off? that's like goin into somebody's house and telling them how to run it.

I know it was a long post, but you could have actually read it all before posting.

[Ummon]

Any formal definition. The probability of metaphysical items is infact untouched by logic, whether based on induction or only on deduction.

[morteduzionism]

Any formal definition. The probability of metaphysical items is infact untouched by logic, whether based on induction or only on deduction.

Do you mean that there's never been an attempt to answer the question of the existence of supernatural beings using logic? Or, do you mean that logic can not be used to answer the question?

[Thanatos]

Well, you don't see ME like that.

*shrugs*

[Archaalen]

But Christians attempt to use logic to explain or justify their specific beliefs all the time. Where's the difference?

[Ummagumma]

As Ummon more eloquently put it, it is simply an 'Us vs. Them' thing. Similarly, if you had a forum about football team x, would you want followers of team y there? It does seem quite odd that they would have systems in place for rooting out the 'heathens' though - surely they should all enjoy ganging up on the (presumably) rare unbelievers!