‘we must concede that even given divine guidance, our acquisition of its truth can only possibly be less than it!’

[Amorphos]

‘we must concede that even given divine guidance, our acquisition of its truth can only possibly be less than it!’

i was discussing the problem of evil being created by god with a chap at ILP forums, when i thought of this.

and this...
from the bible:

•? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)


if, god is what Christians think he is, then he creates evil or at least that he creates a world where evil can be done. does anyone know what god is? after exhausting all other possibilities i can find no way to say what god is but that his very nature is beyond definition, perhaps he is omni-dextrous like that lols.

the bible ~ if truth be known, is a collection of works written by people about how they see god and his works in the world. i do believe that they had divine inspiration, yet also that god due to his nature cannot [even if he wants too] say what he is. he knows the creation to be perfect and hence that it doesn’t need to be manipulated, all things will fall according to the way.

‘when one obtains divine inspiration in any context and religion, it is relative to the inquirer!’ the Jews read it according to their perceptions, hindu’s by theirs.

discuss [erm whatever you can find in that ]

[Praetorian Quintus]

I'd like to quote Rorschach in the Watcmen

" This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not Fate that butchers them or Destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only Us."

Seems to be one of the best thins said about evil in this world. In my opinion at least.

[Amorphos]

Seems to be one of the best thins said about evil in this world. In my opinion at least.

i agree entirely; evil is not created it is made.


then is good taught from god or from life?

[Praetorian Quintus]

I think good is us trying to deny our evil natures. If you look at most 'good' things in life like Mercy, Compassion, or even Kindness; most cases it's us trying to prove to ourselves that we aren't evil at all. Case in point: If you give money to a homeless person, is it because it's compassion? No. You do so because you wan't to think that you are being good. When, in all of actuallity, you do it to convince yourself that you aren't evil.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

I think good is us trying to deny our evil natures. If you look at most 'good' things in life like Mercy, Compassion, or even Kindness; most cases it's us trying to prove to ourselves that we aren't evil at all.

So our nature is to be evil, yet we try to convince ourselves we are not? Why would an evil creature want to do good? In order to feel good about ourself, should we not follow our nature, our "evil instinct"?

Case in point: If you give money to a homeless person, is it because it's compassion? No. You do so because you wan't to think that you are being good. When, in all of actuallity, you do it to convince yourself that you aren't evil.

Ever heard of empathy?

[Praetorian Quintus]

Well, think about Frankenstein's monster, who most people would agree is evil do to the movie. However he tries to convince himself he is good. I mean would you not want to be good if someone said your evil? I would.

I think I should rephrase it then.

We are evil, but we consciously are in denial about it. We don't openly commit evil everyday, but try to do good to convince ourselves that evil is just limited to ' bad people'

Better?

[Yaga Shu Ra]

No, not better, you said the exact same thing as before and did not answer my question. (besides it being a ploy to prove the other person wrong, wich seems far fetched to me)

So again; you state our nature is evil. Would giving in to that nature not feel better than trying to cover it up by doing good?

[Amorphos]

You do so because you wan’t to think that you are being good.

we do yet i disagree in that; empathy or simply because helping is part of the team ethic which humans have survived by since our inception.

that didn’t answer the question really; 'then is good taught from god or from life?' perhaps we should look at it from a more practical point of view, rather than as if life is somehow thinking like a human.

[Last Roman]

Well, think about Frankenstein's monster, who most people would agree is evil do to the movie. However he tries to convince himself he is good. I mean would you not want to be good if someone said your evil? I would.

I think I should rephrase it then.

We are evil, but we consciously are in denial about it. We don't openly commit evil everyday, but try to do good to convince ourselves that evil is just limited to ' bad people'

Better?

that would work, but there is no such thing as "evil" there are beneficial and negative acts and consequences, but no evil. Nor are humans evil, but work in self-interest.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

• I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)


if, god is what Christians think he is, then he creates evil or at least that he creates a world where evil can be done. does anyone know what god is? after exhausting all other possibilities i can find no way to say what god is but that his very nature is beyond definition, perhaps he is omni-dextrous like that lols.

Perhaps the god from the bible is inherently neutral? You know, kinda like us?
Capable of both "good" and "evil". (both of wich possible subjective attributes of any action)

that didn’t answer the question really; 'then is good taught from god or from life?' perhaps we should look at it from a more practical point of view, rather than as if life is somehow thinking like a human.

Then the attributes good and evil would not be at all.

[Praetorian Quintus]

Sorry, I can't think of a way in words to put an answer Yaga. When I do,I'll post it.

[Amorphos]

yaga

Perhaps the god from the bible is inherently neutral? You know, kinda like us?
Capable of both “good” and “evil”. (both of which possible subjective attributes of any action)

indeed! the main thrust of this thread then is; god cannot teach us by teaching alone, so god would not write the bible through human intermediaries, he would just give us life to learn by. especially as we couldnt possibly understand him.

Then the attributes good and evil would not be at all.

not really, we can learn them from life, and that is from experience, yet god cannot teach us that [except by creating life]. sure they don’t exist as entities or something.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

So, we do not need this god in our lives then? What is his role besides starting (and ending?) our mortal lives if we are autodidactic?

[Amorphos]

yes indeed,

and that i suppose even if god exists, the only way he can teach is by experience. if divinity is something other than god, the same applies.

so all the books of all the religions are; books.
...and nothing else.

edit; we could say that we need god in that we need reality, which if he created it, then he is still the teacher.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

The "lesson" derived from a given experience is not necessarily uniform. Assuming free will/thought exists, the conclusions we come to due experience cannot be manipulated and could vary. So his teachings are lacking in direction.
He set the stage, but if he cannot control this, how can we be sure his creation is perfect? Is it infact still perfect if he cannot precisely determine result?

[Da Skinna]

Well we wouldn't know good if we didn't know evil. We wouldn't know freedom if we only knew enslavement and oppression.

God gave us the tools to work with, it's up to us to figure out a spade's a spade, an irrigation system is an irrigation system, and an AK-47 is an AK-47.

What makes us human, is in my opinion, our ability to discern, distinguish and decide between our own notions of morality. Morality being the product of ages-old instincts of self-preservation.

We have the tools, but not the brains to figure what to do with them. On the other hand, we know perfectly well what to do with the tools WE have made.

[Amorphos]

As I read the first as saying reality is a variable, while in the second quote I understand it’s presented as a constant.

probability is a law/principal, such laws are constants yet provide for variability.

Morality being the product of ages-old instincts of self-preservation.

it is not just that, it is also based on empathy and simply the knowledge that our actions may cause harm to others etc. morality is a considered thing rather than purely instinctual.

[Da Skinna]

I think it has to do primarily with it.

Senses of moral duty suddenly take a back seat when the best interests of a self are at stake. I think it happened way back when people killed out of selfishness, usually other tribal peoples, that they found sticking together and working together actually works out better in the long run.

Hence killing children became frowned upon unless in real times of war where all morality is thrown out. People need each other, unless people have something that other's need or want. Then it becomes acceptable to kill them and set fire to their cribs.

Morality is about self-preservation, and the preservation of others when it becomes lenient to do so. Nobody looks out for others unless they feel the need to. Thank God we have a society that deplores murder and selfishness.

[Amorphos]

Senses of moral duty suddenly take a back seat when the best interests of a self are at stake.

any soldier or firefighter etc. would tell you otherwise.

Hence killing children became frowned upon unless in real times of war where all morality is thrown out. People need each other, unless people have something that other’s need or want. Then it becomes acceptable to kill them and set fire to their cribs.

for vikings maybe.
killing children was always frowned upon, we became more warlike not less, hence the morality was present beforehand. there are reasons like a mother wont let her child die as it is like a possession of hers, survivalism etc, however these things belong more to the animal world.

since the inception of language, humanity has questioned, this alone takes us beyond the instinctual. just because we have recently learned about genetics and further back, evolution, we think it runs our lives just like science thinks the atomic world runs existence. i think we got it all a bit back to front. the holistic world is the one we live in and hence the primary reality, the atomic is just what it is made out of.

[Ummon]

‘we must concede that even given divine guidance, our acquisition of its truth can only possibly be less than it!’

i was discussing the problem of evil being created by god with a chap at ILP forums, when i thought of this.

and this...
from the bible:

•? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)


if, god is what Christians think he is, then he creates evil or at least that he creates a world where evil can be done. does anyone know what god is? after exhausting all other possibilities i can find no way to say what god is but that his very nature is beyond definition, perhaps he is omni-dextrous like that lols.

the bible ~ if truth be known, is a collection of works written by people about how they see god and his works in the world. i do believe that they had divine inspiration, yet also that god due to his nature cannot [even if he wants too] say what he is. he knows the creation to be perfect and hence that it doesn’t need to be manipulated, all things will fall according to the way.

‘when one obtains divine inspiration in any context and religion, it is relative to the inquirer!’ the Jews read it according to their perceptions, hindu’s by theirs.

discuss [erm whatever you can find in that ]

The answer to these questions is already contained in the first sentence of the post: the more you understand and put into practice of any inspiration you receive, the less evil you are surrounded with.