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Thread: For King or Country - The English civil war

  1. #1

    Default For King or Country - The English civil war

    Some of you may know me, most probably not. I was the 'art guy' behind broken crescent. I produced around 250 units for that mod along with 95% of the 2D artwork you see throughout the mod. I'm not trying to "blow my own trumpet" here, but merely trying to assert the fact that I'm not a noob with a grand idea and a huge talent for wasting other peoples time.

    Anyway, to the point ...

    For nearly a year now I've been umm'ing and arrr'ing over whether or not to invest the time in an English civil war mod. The concept would be to create a kind of Micro-sized total conversion mod focussing on the 2 main factions of the English civil war; The Royalists and The Parliamentarians. With the possible inclussion of Scotland.

    The 2 main factions would have similar rosters comprising of pikemen, musketeers, artillery, dragoons and cavalry. Perhaps some form of irregular infantry, I am not sure. The unit tally for a single faction might reach the dizzy heights of 8, 9 or 10.

    The beauty of the mod would be in the simplicity. Function would come in way above form. It would be a sharp swing away from the mentality that 'variation is everything' of a big mod like BC or S.S. I would be looking to create extremely well-balanced and tested units with a rock-scissor-paper action.

    The map would be detailed and large in scale. The regions would represent historically important cities and 'counties'. There would be no Ireland, no France, no Denmark, no Wales or any other irrelevant faction in the mod. Merchants, priests, heretics and diplomats would all be gone. War would be inevitable.

    The campaign would be short in years with, if possible, 12 turns per year (if not 4 would have to do). There would be very little to build, not much of a tech-tree and the recruitment system, would be based upon historical support in that region. Economy would be based mostly upon taxation.

    So why am I posting this and not actually doing any work? Two reasons, or rather, 2 people.

    What I need is:

    A) A mapper/scripter with some experience and a track-record for producing high-quality work.

    B) A 'historian' that has an in-depth knowledge of the period, the people, the armies, and the battles.

    If there is anyone interested in working on this project. Please let me know.

    Cheers
    Last edited by AlphaDelta; August 09, 2008 at 02:29 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    This would be roughly the map boundaries:


  3. #3

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    I've deleted the post that do not pertain to this mod. If any mod team is looking for team members, then please post in the proper forum for it. You may also PM. Please don't barge into a thread and post off-topic requests. Not only is this rude to the person who started the thread but it also causes me to come in here and remove posts.

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  4. #4
    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Alpha Delta, might I request that Ireland and Scotland are included? Since the civil war carried on in these two regions for several years after the Royalists lost, and Scotland launched a major rebellion once Charles was executed. Also, what objectives would you have, apart from annilation?
    The Duke of Dunwich and surrounding fiefdom

    For any who are interested by my FF on occurrences in Rhun and beyond; I have begun a new project (not because the old one is finished, just opening more room for ideas) about one of the minor characters, Rankal. It is in the Third Age AAR index and here is the link http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376994

  5. #5

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Alpha Delta, might I request that Ireland and Scotland are included?
    I understand your point with Scotland. As you say they invaded England and they supported Charles II. I would definitely like to include them but the priority in the early developed would be placed heavily upon the two main factions.

    Ireland, as I understand, had it's own revolt in 1641 and also a catholic rebellion in the same year. I'm not sure how the troubles in Ireland effected the English mainland directly and so it's difficult to justify their inclussion. They could always be added in later in perhaps a 3rd campaign.

    Also, what objectives would you have, apart from annilation?
    I've been considering splitting the campaign into 2 parts:

    The first civil war would run from 1642 until 1648. The objective would be to take all Royalist/Parlimentarian territories in roughly 84 turns (7 years x 12 turns per year). This campaign would be the primary focus.

    The second civil war would run from March 1648 onwards. The objective would be to defeat/succeed as/against the armes of Charles II and Scotland during the Scottish invasion.


    Cheers
    Last edited by AlphaDelta; August 21, 2008 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #6
    Last edited by B. Ward; August 05, 2008 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Double Post

    _______________________________
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  7. #7

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Thanks for the links. They have answered a lot of questions and given me a fairly clear idea for how the New model army should look. Does anyone have any pictures of Royalist cavalry and infantry?

    A typical NMA (new model army) cavalryman



    A typical royalist cavalryman (though lacking a breast plate)

    Last edited by AlphaDelta; August 05, 2008 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    I have Osprey's English Civil War, but i don't know if i can post the pictures because copyright issues
    "We'll go to the front—and beyond it, if it'll save the galaxy. Sometimes you have to enter the darkness to save the light."

  9. #9

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander Ruunu View Post
    I have Osprey's English Civil War, but i don't know if i can post the pictures because copyright issues
    unfortunatly its not permitted

  10. #10

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    not sure from which time zone but it must be arround your mods time

    You already working on this or is this still a suggestion?


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  11. #11

    Default

    I also have it. It's a good book but the plates concentrate on the leadership rather than the average man on the field. From the plates, I get the feeling that each Royalist infantry regiment had it's own colour of coat. Whereas practically every re-enactment photo/video shows each man in the Royalist infantry wearing a different coloured coat. I'm inclined to believe the latter as the Royalist army was not professional and the soldiers were local peasantry that fought as a duty to their lord.

    There's also a problem that a lot of the Royalist cavalry wore almost identical clothing and armour to the NMA. If the mod is to be developed I will most likely lean towards the classical view of the NMA being uniform and drab (all infantry in red coats, cavalry in yellow + blacked armour) with the Royalist infantry and cavalry being a wider range of colours.

    Dragoons are also something of a problem. Early period NMA dragoons appear to be almost identical to musketeers, except that they wore cavalry boots and slightly fancier hats. In the later period they looked almost identical to troopers/harqebusiers.

    The Heavy cavalry appears to be similar for both Royalist and NMA. The only difference I could see myself implementing is that Royalists would wear the enclosed face helmet and the NMA the lobster pot.

    Cheers

    You already working on this or is this still a suggestion?
    It's still in the design stages. I need a solid offer from a mapper and someone with a deep knowledge of the civil war to help plan the rosters.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Amroth; August 05, 2008 at 02:35 PM. Reason: dp

  12. #12

    Default

    well i can always help on research although i dont now so mush about this period also there are plenty of mappers arround atm you should pm some.










































    You need more?

    Some more









    So good info over clothing muskets and more
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Civil War Armies
    In 17th century Britain an army consisted of regiments of foot (numbering up to 1200 pikemen and musketeers), regiments of horse (whose cavalrymen would be brigaded into bodies up to 2000 strong), dragoons (who were really mounted musketeers) and a ‘trayne of artillery' with its accompanying ‘baggage trayne'. There was considerable dependence on camp followers, sutlers and others who catered to the needs of the soldiers. At the start of the war many regiments were initially raised, armed and clothed by private gentlemen of wealth.

    An army of 15,000 men on the move would be a noisy, dusty, but impressive sight and, when drawn up for battle, would present a front line nearly two miles long. A commander would draw up his army for battle according to the practices laid down in the many drill books written by professional soldiers before and during the wars.

    Each regiment of ‘foot' was supposed to contain about 1,200 officers and men organized in ten companies. However, regiments were usually well below strength, and often had less than ten companies. Companies of only 40 or 50 men and regiments 300 or 400 strong were common. Both sides raised several armies during the course of the civil war. They were sometimes created to conduct a particular campaign and it was quite common for losses in men and materials not to be replaced, so that an army dwindled in size until it became ineffective.

    Each company was commanded by a captain (or more senior officer) supported by a lieutenant, an ensign (carrying the company flag, or standard), one gentleman of the arms (to take care of the weapons), two sergeants, two corporals and two drummers. In addition, each regiment had a quartermaster, a chaplain, a provost marshal (in charge of discipline), a surgeon and his ‘mate', a carriage master and a drum major. The ordinary soldiers in each company were either musketeers or pikemen, the usual ratio being two musketeers to every pikeman.

    The main weapon of the musketeer was the matchlock musket. Early versions were heavy and had a barrel forty-eight inches long which, because of its weight, had to be supported on a 'rest', a wooden pole about four feet long with a steel fork at the top. Lighter, shorter muskets that could be used without rests had been specified by the government in the 1630s and these became the standard pattern as the war progressed. Matchlocks were cheap, strong and easily repaired.

    Coarsely ground gunpowder (or ‘black powder') was carried on a shoulder belt called a bandolier from which hung a dozen or more wooden or leather bottles each containing enough powder for a single charge. Lead bullets were carried in a bag on a waist belt. An alternative to the bandolier and bullet bag was a pouch of ready-made paper cartridges each containing a charge of powder and a lead ball.
    The musketeer also carried a flask of finely ground powder for priming the musket. To ignite the gunpowder a coil of slow-burning ‘match' (cord boiled in saltpeter and vinegar) was used. Both ends of this were kept alight in case one went out. Wet weather was a serious problem for the matchlock musketeer as rain could render both priming powder and match useless.

    Loading and firing was a lengthy process, requiring over thirty separate movements. Trained musketeers could achieve a rate of fire of two rounds a minute. In order to provide an almost continuous fire the musketeers were formed in ranks six deep or more, each line firing in rotation. Despite improvements in firepower, musketeers still needed to be supported by armoured pikemen, especially when opposed by cavalry. Bayonets did not come into use until later in the 17th century.

    Clothing of Soldiers in the English Civil War
    Articles - Civil War Armies
    There was no standing army in Britain before the civil wars of 1642-1651. When soldiers were needed, every county supplied a quota of men and the money needed to provide each man with a uniform coat and the cost of getting him to place of rendezvous, the so-called 'coat and conduct' money.

    Each county was also responsible for raising and training local militia forces, the 'trained bands'. It is uncertain whether all of these were provided with uniform coats as well. Probably not, except in the wealthiest areas. The London Trained Bands, for example, do appear to have been uniformed. It is likely that forces raised for purely local defence during the civil war wore their own clothing, although they may have worn uniform coats over this to aid identification.

    There is far more evidence for the wearing of complete uniforms in the field armies of both sides. Many of the initial companies and regiments were raised, clothed and equipped by private gentlemen of wealth. We know from contemporary descriptions that these gentlemen chose the uniform colours that were worn by their men.

    At the first major battle of the war, Edgehill (23 October 1642), the King's army included many new Welsh recruits who lacked both uniforms and weapons. These defects were put right in the early months of 1643 when the King established his headquarters at Oxford. The records of issues of coats, breeches and caps in cloth of blue and red, and of the small army of tailors assembled to make these uniforms, still survive. The details of the uniforms provided for Parliament's New Model Army have also survived - red coats and grey (or some other 'suitable' colour) breeches.


    The Musketeer
    Articles - Civil War Armies
    The main weapon of the musketeer was the matchlock musket. Early versions were heavy and had a barrel forty-eight inches long which, because of its weight, had to be supported on a 'rest', a wooden pole about four feet long with a steel fork at the top. Lighter, shorter muskets that could be used without rests had been specified by the government in the 1630s and these became the standard pattern as the war progressed. Matchlocks were cheap, strong and easily repaired.

    Coarsely ground gunpowder (or ‘black powder') was carried on a shoulder belt called a bandolier from which hung a dozen or more wooden or leather bottles each containing enough powder for a single charge. Lead bullets were carried in a bag on a waist belt. An alternative to the bandolier and bullet bag was a pouch of ready-made paper cartridges each containing a charge of powder and a lead ball.

    The musketeer also carried a flask of finely ground powder for priming the musket. To ignite the gunpowder a coil of slow-burning ‘match' (cord boiled in saltpeter and vinegar) was used. Both ends of this were kept alight in case one went out. Wet weather was a serious problem for the matchlock musketeer as rain could render both priming powder and match useless.

    Loading and firing was a lengthy process, requiring over thirty separate movements. Trained musketeers could achieve a rate of fire of two rounds a minute. In order to provide an almost continuous fire the musketeers were formed in ranks six deep or more, each line firing in rotation. Despite improvements in firepower, musketeers still needed to be supported by armoured pikemen, especially when opposed by cavalry. Bayonets did not come into use until later in the 17th century.






    Perhaps i can make a unit list not sure
    Last edited by Amroth; August 05, 2008 at 02:37 PM. Reason: dps

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  13. #13

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Nice work. One thing, could you put the pictures in a spoiler tag?

    We know from contemporary descriptions that these gentlemen chose the uniform colours that were worn by their men.
    That text seems to confirm Osprey plates - Each regiment did have a different colour. This could be accomodated for. There could be a unit of peasantry pikemen and musketeers available to the royalists, along side better trained green and also blue coat infantry.

    Although the styling and colour would differ, the unit list seems to be identical for both sides as far as I can tell.

    Musketeers (matchlocks at the start getting replaced by flint locks later)
    Pikemen (Breast and back plates, helmets)
    Dragoons (essentially mounted musketeers in cavalry boots at the start, later they become more like harqebusiers)
    Harqebusiers (NMA harqebusiers with lobster pots and yellow buff coats. Royalist harqebusiers with a range of styles and hats)
    Heavy cavalry (Full plate)
    Various sizes of artillery piece

    Any other ideas for units?

    Cheers
    Last edited by AlphaDelta; August 05, 2008 at 12:36 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    I founded a link that has some good info over The regiments they are fighting whit every side. I made 1 regiment ready for ya for the ''Kings army''.

    Regiments of the King’s Army
    1 (of the 7 of the inportent army's of him)

    Sir Thomas Blackwell his Regiment of Foote
    Thomas Blackwell (1605-1653) was a gentleman from Mansfield Woodhouse in Nottinghamshire. On July 2nd 1643 his regiment first saw action in the capture of Burton on Trent.

    Units:



    Regiments of the King’s Army
    2 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    Lord Ralph Hopton his Regiment of Foote
    On the King's command Sir Ralph Hopton and other notables began recruiting in Somerset in July 1642, hoping to gather together the militia that Hopton had spent so long training.



    Regiments of the King’s Army
    3 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    Sir Richard Grenvile his Regiment of Horse
    The Cavalry Regiment of the King's Army.



    Regiments of the King’s Army
    4 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    Sir William Pennyman his Regiment of Foote
    We portray the senior regiment of the King's Oxford Army of 1643. Please visit our website for more information

    The Regiment had originally been raised from the Yorkshire Trained Bands for the war with the Scots 1638-9. In 1643 the Regiment as part of the garrison of Oxford, was re-equipped with new suits and caps of blue cloth, new weapons, armour and well provided with ammunition.

    Our primary identity as a re-enactment organisation is to represent a company of Sir William Pennyman's Regiment just after it had been re-equipped at Oxford in 1643. We wear blue suits and caps made to a well-researched pattern and we are armed



    Hope the unit list is going faster now
    The flag i aint sure if it is the good one + +rep
    Last edited by firekiller; August 05, 2008 at 01:05 PM.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    About new unit ideas -

    English middle 17th cent. artillery - demi-culverines, calivers, sakers, drakes, fast artillery (galloper guns)

    As far as I know you can make two types of dragoons (one better armed then other) - thats at least for royalist armies.

    Royalist cavalry should be named "Cavaliers" (armed with pistols - so typical pistoler cavalry)

    At the start of war Parliamentarian army should have only one type of dragoon unit, two types of pistoler cavalry (one of them heavy armored Cuirassiers).

    The cavalry on both armies should be essentially pistoler cavalry. I don't think England had Harqebusier units. Of course harquebuses were carried by in those cavalry units - but it was more of a individual preference than rule.

    For unit variation you can introduce mercenaries from Europe, or for example English veterans of 30 years war. I think there should be also small core of professional infantry (Trained Bands) from London, though I lack information about them.
    Last edited by Herkus; August 05, 2008 at 01:11 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    As far as I know you can make two types of dragoons (one better armed then other) - thats at least for royalist armies.
    I'll most likely produce an early style dragoon for the first civil war campaign, and a later style dragoon for the second.

    The Med2 engine doesn't support mounting and dismounted in battle so I'll probably make the early dragoons a form of light infantry able to move at a slightly higher speed. The latter dragoons I will probably have as a mounted carbine wielding unit able to fire from the saddle.

    Also dragoons wearing back and breast plates was apparently the "exception rather than the rule".

    Royalist cavalry should be named "Cavaliers" (armed with pistols - so typical pistoler cavalry)
    I'm not sure this is true. As I understand it, cavalier was a named used only by the roundheads for the royalists and was essentially derogatory slang.

    The cavalry on both armies should be essentially pistoler cavalry.
    My plan so far is to give the cavalry of both sides 2 pistols + a sword.

    At the start of war Parliamentarian army should have only one type of dragoon unit, two types of pistoler cavalry (one of them heavy armored Cuirassiers).
    By heavy armoured cuirassiers do you mean the cavalry that fought in full plate armour? If so I believe that both sides had this style of cavalry. If you mean cuirassiers that wore curasses (front and back breast plates), what is the other kind?

    I don't think England had Harqebusier units. Of course harquebuses were carried by in those cavalry units - but it was more of a individual preference than rule.
    According to Osprey, the harquebus was by this time no longer used, but the name of the cavalry (Harquebusiers) remained.

    For unit variation you can introduce mercenaries from Europe, or for example English veterans of 30 years war
    French musketeers would be a good option for mercs.


    Firekiller,

    Excellent research. The militia style royalist infantry of Lord Ralph Hopton's Regiment of Foote seem like an excellent basis for the Royalist infantry units.

    Cheers
    Last edited by AlphaDelta; August 05, 2008 at 06:47 PM.

  17. #17
    B. Ward's Avatar ★★★★ RockNRolla ★★★★
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    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Not a bad concept. How big are you considering making the map? I'm guessing you would prefer more field battles for this mod.

  18. #18

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    thx
    Regiments of the King’s Army
    5 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    Sir Marmaduke Rawdon his Regiment of Foote

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Regiments of the King’s Army
    6 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    Sir Thomas Tyldesley his Regiment of Foote
    A Royalist regiment raised in Lancashire early in 1643 and which first saw action on 9th February of the same year at the siege of Preston.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Regiments of the King’s Army
    7 (of the 7 of the importent army's of him)

    The Marquess of Winchester his Regiment of Foote

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    _______________________________
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  19. #19

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Excuse my ignorance, but what were the major differences between the parlamentarians and the royalists?

  20. #20

    Default Re: A proposal - The English civil war

    Excellent project brief AD, I've always believed in the potential of this conflict on the TW engine and it's always exciting to see people considering such projects, especially modders of such accomplishment. Hope it makes progress!

    Excuse my ignorance, but what were the major differences between the parlamentarians and the royalists?
    Ultimately being of the same nation in the same timeframe there are no really major differences in their equipment or tactics (ie. at the end of the day it's pikes,muskets,cavalry,cannon) but there are plenty of possibilities for individual "unique" units to distinguish the two sides, like the Ironside cavalry (and the New Model Army in general) for Parliament and units like Prince Rupert's Bluecoats for the Royalists. Realistically the only truely "different" soldiers in the area, if these places were included, would be the Gaelic soldiers (clansmen from Ireland and the Highlands) used by the Irish and Scots alongside more regular units. Melee-orientated "barbarian" infantry who nonetheless scored some fairly significant victories against regular armies, most notably the Royalist-Irish-Highlander army of the Marquess of Montrose in Scotland.

    FWIW I would join with sirfiggin in emphasising the desirability of featuring Scotland and Ireland for a realistic scope of the conflict, they were 3 kingdoms with one king after all. There's a reason that modern historians tend to refer to the British Civil Wars or Wars of the Three Kingdoms rather than simply to the English Civil War - for while that was certainly the largest conflict it was critically affected, and indeed even initiated, by events unfolding in the other two Stuart kingdoms. Scottish Covenanter troops invaded both England and Ireland in support of Parliament (an alliance which ultimately collapsed) while the Irish counter-invaded Scotland and Charles' decision to make common cause with them virtually convicted him in the eyes of the zealously anti-Catholic Parliament. There was no sigificant input on the conflict from any Continental faction (though personnel and money both came from there) but I do believe you need the entire British Isles to fully depict the conflict (plus you could save time by redrawing the provinces on the Britannia map rather than making a completely new one)

    Of course it would make sense to focus primarily on getting the Roundheads and Cavaliers done and you could leave worrying about the other two factions (the Scottish Covenanters and the Irish Confederates) till later, but I think the you would ultimately regret leaving them out entirely.

    However you decide to proceed, good luck.

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