Desert Archer Rant

[Bacon!]

Im currently playing as the Knights Templar, after destroying the Fatamids there were a few rebel towns to clean up, due to the regular fatamid attacks one of the closer towns was lightly defending mostly by infantry, so i decided to send one of my less experienced generals and two units of Dismounted Knights Templar and one unit of Dismounted Knights Hospitaller to deal with them. On the way i came accross another rebel army one the borders of my recently taken land, when looking at this army it didnt seem to be anything that my small army couldnt deal with so i made the first move and attacked. The rebel army contained two units of peasents, one unit of spear militia, one general in a unit of arab cav and two units of desert archers. The battle plan was just standard advance in a straight line in loose formation while advancing then close formation when i got close. While my infantry was moving forward they took very heavy casualtys, there was roughly 180 dismounted templars and hospitallers when the battle started and before i even attacked the enemy troops i had lost around 35 - 40 men. I was already annoyed as this point as i had really under estimated these apparentlly elite archers, lose yet when i actually engaged these archers i continued to take heavy casualties, i had to retreat from the battle as even though i had a better general, better quality troops and a bigger ego i still lost. When i switched of Medieval in a tantrum i decided to look at these troops in the export_descr_unit file i was quite supprised to find that they not only had the piercing ability from their arrows but also in close combat when they are fighting with swords. Are they really supposed to be this good when they have a recruitment cost of 320 and upkeep of 100 florins? :hmmm:

Next time i see this army they are gonna meet a very bloody death

[Oddball_E8]

hmm... that ap trait must be in there by accident... just remove it (and notify king kong since he might not know about this...)

[obbob]

Mongol Infantry have an upkeep of 90, and are average melee fighters (can take out sergeant spearmen in melees), yet are one of the best archers in the game. However they are a top tier unit

[Skooma Addict]

I just did a siege against the Fatimids playing as France. All but their two units of desert archers routed so I charged my general at them. To my surprise(and later dismay) they didn't skirmish away so I couldn't just cut them down while their backs were turned. My charge only killed a dozen of them and my numbers dwindled down just as fast as theirs, so I withdrew and let my dismounted templar knights cut them down while I charged them from behind. They died...eventually.

[Mjr Phil]

I'm currently playing England and have been attacked by Spain. They had archers, javelinmen and two jinetes. So I took two levy spearmen, two mailed knights and my King with his son. Once generals engaged jinetes, I was astouned how serious casualties they took in melee! 2HP generals in total lost around 35 units (aprox. 40%!) before routing remains of jinetes. Plus mailed knights got serious blow from attacking lusitanian javelinmen in frontal charge (but they were marching towards, though). So my point is, that AP ability in melee is there, to more than just archers, and it is still quite silly. For missile cav to be comparable in h2h to far superior 2hp generals - WTF??

PS. Of course I have RR, RC and all that most popular stuff.

[Bacon!]

The odd thing is that desert archers description says that suffer in hand combat but they slaughter my troops =/

[Oddball_E8]

im gonna go over my file and remove the ap trait on these units when it comes to close combat... i suggest you do the same...

[Quark]

Bacon!
Err - not KK's fault as this is a SS 6.1 unit

type Desert Archers
dictionary Desert_Archers ; Desert Archers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Desert_Archers, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 1, composite_arrow, 200, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 2, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 1, 2, -2, -2
stat_mental 8, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 10
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 380, 160, 65, 50, 380, 4, 90
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models Desert_Archers, Desert_Archers_ug1
ownership moors, egypt, slave
era 0 moors, egypt
era 1 moors, egypt
era 2 moors, egypt
recruit_priority_offset 10

ie no armour piercing, so it must be some mod you have downloaded.

[Navajo Joe]

I have encountered this before in other TW Games, where what appears to be Heavy Infantry have suffered against inferior force. Missile units whether mounted or dismounted can cause casualties. I always in any army ensure I have enough Light Cavarly to chase them off the battlefield at least or run them down.
I take it your infantry walked into battle and to take some casualties is expected although your losses appear heavy.
I have recently finished a book where in Medieval Times if a Welsh Longbowman missed his target would be the height of embarrasment. I know these Archers are not Longbowmen, but I personally would have avoided this confrontation.

[Bacon!]

Bacon!
Err - not KK's fault as this is a SS 6.1 unit

type Desert Archers
dictionary Desert_Archers ; Desert Archers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Desert_Archers, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 1, composite_arrow, 200, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 2, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 1, 2, -2, -2
stat_mental 8, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 10
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 380, 160, 65, 50, 380, 4, 90
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models Desert_Archers, Desert_Archers_ug1
ownership moors, egypt, slave
era 0 moors, egypt
era 1 moors, egypt
era 2 moors, egypt
recruit_priority_offset 10

ie no armour piercing, so it must be some mod you have downloaded.

perhaps its from some sort of sub mod then?, just to be clear i never said it was KK's fault nor do i think it is , just to give me confidence a boost i did know how to remove the ability but thank you for showing how to do it for other people

[crsutton]

Are you fighting in desert terrain?

Armored knights should be at a large disadvantage fighting light units in the desert. This should not be a surprise.

In European terrain the archers should die fast.

[Oddball_E8]

no that was me saying (well not really) that it was kk's fault...

but i guess it must be some submod...

ps. dont just remove it there... if they have it, its a good bet some other archers/skirmish units have it too... go through the list carefully to look for it and remove when inappropriate...

[St Naffatun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

[The Noble Lord]

Could it be because you fought them in the terrain that suits them. In the desert. Thats why they are doing so well against the heavy infantry??


CHEERS

[Bacon!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

When writing on a game forum is 100% correct grammer really that big a deal?, if it is i will make more of an effort for you in my future posts.

[St Naffatun]

When writing on a game forum is 100% correct grammer really that big a deal?, if it is i will make more of an effort for you in my future posts.

Was meant to be cheeky not rude (it was a rant after all) my apologies

[Oddball_E8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

wow... you really dont have anything more useful to do with your life?

see... now you made me waste my time too... i could have been sleeping.

ps. i really hope youre gonna comment on me using too many .'s ds.