Romano-British/Picts NEED rebalancing

[seriousbusiness]

I'm quite annoyed about this, so I figured instead of repeatedly and annoyingly whinging about it, I'd best just make a thread.

Currently the Picts are next to (if theoretically not) unplayable on vh/vh (probably other difficulties as well - but if it scarcely be done with even perfect micromanagement then something is wrong). The main reason for this is the Romano-British start with large amounts of Stabelsiani and Scutarri cavalry which quickly crush the Picts in a short time - often only about 5-10 turns. This is ENTIRELY wrong historically, since the Romano-British in the form presented ingame lasted only a few decades - and in the form of militia-grade troops and few professional troops. It is believed many of these troops were not professional since Britain of that time could hardly afford to field them (as indicated in part by the game quickly plunging you into debt very quickly at the start) however this is little consolation to the poor Picts who in a rather helpless situation.

By contrast, the Picts must deal with having a tiny economy and weak troops. They can afford only a single stack of mostly levy-style troops and infantries that frankly, do not live up to the proud Celtic name in warfare. Their medium cavalry, comprising most of that they get, blow - at least considering what they are up against. The Picts were among the first to benefit from the withdrawal and abandonment - of (essentially) all professional troops from Britain by 410. That same year by Honorius himself wrote a letter which (in the nicest of terms) told the British to look to their own defence. That the Picts are fighting for their very lives is ludicrous at the very least. Taking other provinces quickly to help with their survival (eg. Ireland, Scandinavia) still leaves them too weak to have much (if any) hope for conquering Britain. It is practically impossible and it must be addressed.

I would not mind seeing a more prominent Saxon force in Britain either. If possible it would be great to see the Saxons sending regular forces across in an effort to take Britain - provided this does not compromise their existing position too much. However, since they can horde, their chances of survival even in failure are not bad.

I understand the Romano-British are a (rightly) popular faction, but the current balance in Britain is historically insolent or worse. It is fairly fun already, but something must be done - it could be so much better but it is simply wrong

[Templar Knight]

i agree

[andrewmc]

I agree, apart from when I have played as the romano british the saxons do quite often send armies across to attack the british isles. Do you not think though that the Romano british should be able to build proffesional troop because if you develop and empire you develop your technology and part of that is developing troops training etc... because personally i don't agree that british legions can only be built in britain as they should be able to be recruited across your empire like WRE who can recruit most of their units in any province.

[seriousbusiness]

I agree, apart from when I have played as the romano british the saxons do quite often send armies across to attack the british isles.

I have played 3 VH/VH games as the Romano British and 2 as Picts (VH/VH) and that never happened. Not at all; when they were the ultimate conquerors of Roman Britain. Absurd.

Do you not think though that the Romano british should be able to build proffesional troop because if you develop and empire you develop your technology and part of that is developing troops training etc... because personally i don't agree that british legions can only be built in britain as they should be able to be recruited across your empire like WRE who can recruit most of their units in any province.

I believe they should be able to recruit professional troops. The issue is mostly that they start with a large professional army when England was devoid of troops practically completely at this time. It should be necessary to build even a basic defence force for England - not be running one of the largest and most dangerous forces in the entire game and blitzing the Picts in as little as 5 turns.

The second issue is the economy. We need the Romano British to be capable of beating the Picts (against the odds) although still capable of wresting a province or two from the Franks. Should be simple enough. I am not suggesting we eliminate the Romano-British as a mid-late game contender. Romano-British recruitment is mostly fine - the issue is sustaining a large enough force later to take 2 Gaulish provinces (or possibly just Condate depending on what you've chosen to attack). British legionaries were mock-comitatenses anyway, since it was not possible for the Romano-British warlords to maintain many professional troops - so the recruitment system largely makes sense. It is mostly about the economy and starting units - although I would certainly like to see the Picts and Saxons being buffed up greatly. It could be only a good thing as it stands now.

[seriousbusiness]

I would also like to add that Constantine III declared himself Emperor in Britain. Perhaps there should be some evidence that Britain in 410 is in unstable and rebellious situation?

[andrewmc]

I agree with you on this subject, the picts require a few better units like the rest of the barbarian factions. The battle to beat the saxon army in britain is way to easy.

[seriousbusiness]

It may be a simple matter of removing the RB starting units and making their economy smaller - which appears to be on the way for v8. However, how the 'gaelic tribes' will work out is still a mystery.

[mrwakka]

Im looking forward to the gaelic tribes myself, now if only v8 was done already...

[Scutarii]

Not to dig up a dead thread, but I figured starting my own didn't make sense: I've also found the Picts unreasonably weak. How did they go from being the resilient people that stopped the Roman advance into Britain, harrassed them for centuries, and also staved off the Saxon advance into Scotland, into the faction they are now? They have next to no good troops (even the so-called 'nobles' (who have the nerve to be called galloglasses in the EDU) are pitiful, something like 10 AT and 18 DEF, next to no armour). If your nobles can barely beat milites stationarii, then where are you going in life? I hope to god these guys' roster is re-evaluated for v8. They need a serious buff.

EDIT: Looking back on it, is the Galloglasses unit (forget the in-game name) an oversight? I mean, they're stats are the same as the original BI unit of gallowglasses was, which, in the IBRR world, woefully low.

[Ihatemonday]

We will have a lot of new units and changes in britainMore saxons more units and really good stone defences

[Scutarii]

Sounds awesome. Can't wait.

[The Yogi]

I mucked around with the scenario file and removed all the Romano-British heavy cav (except the generals) and replaced the legio stationarii with auxilias.

Result: the picts were still overrun around 420 AD and the Saxons never gained a foothold in Britain. Apparently, some fairly drastic rebalancing is in order. The Romano-British should be hard pressed even to survive, let alone go on a conquering spree north of the wall.

[Ihatemonday]

I mucked around with the scenario file and removed all the Romano-British heavy cav (except the generals) and replaced the legio stationarii with auxilias.

Result: the picts were still overrun around 420 AD and the Saxons never gained a foothold in Britain. Apparently, some fairly drastic rebalancing is in order. The Romano-British should be hard pressed even to survive, let alone go on a conquering spree north of the wall.

We plan major changes for britain.I cant tell all for now but saxons and picts will really be very strong in britain.We will change everything you see now.

[The Yogi]

Great! I appreciate it must be very hard to balance things. On one hand, you don't want the subromans in Britain to become too powerful. On the other hand, they did hang around for quite a long time (a century or more?) so you can't weaken them too much either. Not easy, to be sure.

[sirfiggin]

The real annoying thing playing as the romano-british is that you can end up feeling trapped; unless you plan the first turn very carefully, you end up a big fish in a very small tank. On the second campaign as the british, I sacked the churches for extra cash, built a two boat fleet and a diplomat, so that I had a presence on the mainland (pirates were a real bane on that front) anywyas, I ended that campaign after overreaching a bit; had passed the victory conditions, gone overseas, taken on the constaninians (easy as pie), re-taken the rhine frontier, all was good... then WRE started sending over massive stacks, while still in alliance with me. It seemed western europe was too small for two roman factions, and though king Madrun won far more fights than he lost, I saw the end; still could only get first-rate heavy infantry in one settlement (would it be too much for them to get comitatenses on the mainland?) and was up against bluddy palatine cohorts, clibinarii and the hordes of italy, what the hell, Alaric, to hot? Too SPICY!? cretin... anyway,

Started a second campaign, with the full script on, which included saxon raids, whilst the raids are easy to deal with and the debt is gone, do the spawned half-size stacks keep on coming? Or is their certain factors triggering it? Cheers in advance.