Genetics, Eugenics, Abortion, & Discrimination

[the_mango55]

This thread was actually inspired by a sarcastic post on another thread.

One thing i have been trying to figure. how comes you cant have an abortion if the babys a queer? they can tell that nowdays some of the time in there jeens. How would that be?

If, as people say, homosexuality is not a choice and is in fact genetic, it may be possible in the near future to determine the sexuality of a person even before birth.

Therefore, people would of course have the ability to choose the sexuality of their child. If it was heterosexual, they could choose to keep it, while if it was homosexual they could choose to abort.

What are people's feelings on this topic, should it be legal? Is it ethical?

[Maverick]

What are people's feelings on this topic, should it be legal? Is it ethical?

Is it ethical... are you serious?

[the_mango55]

I mean, I know my opinion on it, but I want everyone else's

[eventhorizen]

Is it any more or less ethically correct than aborting a foetus because the mother is 14, poor, or the foetus has mental or physical retardation?

If a society is to be as pro-choice as many Western commentators have us believe it should be then what of abortion of a foetus determined to be possibly homosexual by parents of certain cultural and lifestyle persuasions or choices?

Obviously this is not a perfect world where every conception can be looked after once the stage of birth has been reached, but the pro-choice arguement is a can of worms.

[rathelios]

Behaviour cannot be predicted genetically. Genetics does not work that way. There are too many environmental factors interacting with the genes. In addition almost all genetic predispositions are combinations of many genes acting in different directions phenotypically.
So it is a moot point because there is no gay gene.

[Cluny the Scourge]

When it becomes possible to select a foetus' genetic traits then it should be legal. There are no ethical issues involved. It is no-one's business other than the parent.

[Chlodwig I.]

And if there would be a gay gene it would have caused homosexuals to vanish from earth no reproduction, no babies with that gene.


I'm not sure but last science article I read about homosexuality it was some theory of a scientist that said something like
if male fetus doesn't get enough testosterone during a certain pregnancy week it would be born with homosexual tendencies and the same for female fetus that gets to much testosterone.
It was said that it has something to do with the impact of this hormone on the brain of the fetus
Not sure if its true but if it would be true there would be easy methods of finding out if a baby could be homosexual


but on topic after homosexuality is not a desease or handicap it would be unethical to abort a baby just because its not "normal"
But on the other hand most people would want to have "normal" babies so I would understand if someone would abort a homosexual baby.

[Shi Huangdi]

This thread was actually inspired by a sarcastic post on another thread.

If, as people say, homosexuality is not a choice and is in fact genetic, it may be possible in the near future to determine the sexuality of a person even before birth.

Therefore, people would of course have the ability to choose the sexuality of their child. If it was heterosexual, they could choose to keep it, while if it was homosexual they could choose to abort.

What are people's feelings on this topic, should it be legal? Is it ethical?

First of all, homosexuality isn't a genetic thing; it's immoral. If it were natural, we'd expect to see gay animals as well--especially if you believe in Evolution.

But even if homosexuality were caused by genetics, the parents would still have no right to abort a child with that gene.

[vizi]

Ethics only holds humanity back.

Let people do what they desire.

[the_mango55]

Ethics only holds humanity back.

Let people do what they desire.

You're right.

Imagine where we would be now if only we had gotten rid of those pesky Jews when we had the chance.

[wilpuri]

Imagine where we would be now if only we had gotten rid of those pesky Jews when we had the chance.

Ahoi! He brings in Hitler!

How will Vizi respond to the challenge?

Stay tuned to find out.

[KingOfTheIsles]

That was an impressively quick case of Reductio ad Hitlerum. I blame whoever put Eugenics in the thread title.

[the_mango55]

Ahoi! He brings in Hitler!

How will Vizi respond to the challenge?

Stay tuned to find out.

That was an impressively quick case of Reductio ad Hitlerum. I blame whoever put Eugenics in the thread title.

I technically didn't say Hitler, but it was just the first thing I could think of when being told that "Ethics only holds humanity back."


I'll amend the argument to "Pesky Native Americans" if you want.

[Megas12345]

First of all, homosexuality isn't a genetic thing; it's immoral. If it were natural, we'd expect to see gay animals as well--especially if you believe in Evolution.

But even if homosexuality were caused by genetics, the parents would still have no right to abort a child with that gene.

Wow... I suppose you and your pastor wanna burn homosexuals? How is it immoral?

[Mythos]

First of all, homosexuality isn't a genetic thing; it's immoral. If it were natural, we'd expect to see gay animals as well--especially if you believe in Evolution.

Is it so hard to check wikipedia? But then again if a significant part of your ethics system won't survive a 15 second search in google, why would you bother?

[nce_wht_guy]

First of all, homosexuality isn't a genetic thing; it's immoral. If it were natural, we'd expect to see gay animals as well--especially if you believe in Evolution.

Score one for evolution

[HopliteElite]

I believe fully in eugenics and I think it is perfectly logical to want to, for lack of a better word, customize, your children prior to their birth. Although, if it ever "was" to be proven that homosexuality was inborn and it could be eliminated through the use of eugenics, I would say, if you, as the parent, do not want a gay child, feel free to make it straight prior to birth. However, the whole being born gay thing and as such, using eugenics to eliminate homosexuality, is rediculous as there is very little to no hard evidence to support homosexuality being genetic.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

First of all, homosexuality isn't a genetic thing; it's immoral. If it were natural, we'd expect to see gay animals as well--especially if you believe in Evolution.

We do see gay animals.

As for the OP: It depends on your view for abortion. If one is free to abort a fetus at any time for any reason, you've answered your own question. If one is only free to abort due to rape or danger to the mother's life, you've answered your own question. If one is never free to abort... you get the point.

So, I assume we're working with premise A - one is free to abort whenever for whatever reason. I understand that it would seem unethical but it would be totally up to the woman to determine whether she wanted a child with a certain lifestyle.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Theres plenty of gay animals. And to the answer this is partially why I have some reservations on abortion.

[IronBlood]

And Here's the list gay animals...

This list includes animals (birds, mammals, insects, fish, etc.) for which there is documented evidence of homosexual or transgender behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting, as noted in researcher and author Bruce Bagemihl's 1999 book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity.

Bagemihl writes that the presence of same-sex sexual behavior was not 'officially' observed on a large scale until the 1990s due to possible observer bias caused by social attitudes towards LGBT people making the homosexual theme taboo.[2][3] Bagemihl devotes three chapters; Two Hundred Years at Looking at Homosexual Wildlife, Explaining (Away) Animal Homosexuality and Not For Breeding Only in his 1999 book Biological Exuberance to the "documentation of systematic prejudices" where he notes "the present ignorance of biology lies precisely in its single-minded attempt to find reproductive (or other) "explanations" for homosexuality, transgender, and non-procreative and alternative heterosexualities.[4] Petter Bøckman, academic adviser for the Against Nature? exhibit states

"[M]any researchers have described homosexuality as something altogether different from sex. They must realise that animals can have sex with who they will, when they will and without consideration to a researcher's ethical principles".

Homosexual behavior is widespread amongst social birds and mammals, particularly the sea mammals and the primates.[3]

"No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

—Petter Bøckman[3]
Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species and the motivations for and implications of their behaviors have yet to be fully understood. Bagemihl's research shows that homosexual behavior, not necessarily sex, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[5][6]

Homosexuality in animals is seen as controversial because some assert it points to the naturalness of homosexuality in humans, while others counter that it has no implications and is nonsensical to use animal behavior to justify what is or is not immoral.[7][8] Animal preference and motivation is always inferred from behaviour. Thus homosexual behaviour has been given a number of terms over the years. The correct usage of the term homosexual is that an animal exhibits homosexual behaviour, however this article conforms to the usage by modern research[9][10][11][12] applying the term homosexuality to all sexual behaviour (copulation, genital stimulation, mating games and sexual display behaviour) between animals of the same sex.

Mammals

African Elephant[16]
Brown Bear[17]
Brown Rat[18]
Buffalo[19]
Caribou[20]
Cat (domestic)[21]
Cheetah[22]
Common Dolphin[23]
Common Marmoset[24]
Common Raccoon[25]
Dog (domestic)[26]
European Bison[27]
Human

Birds

Chicken (Domestic)[28]
Common Gull[29]
Emu[30]
King Penguin[31]


Fish

Arctic Grayling (Thymallus arcticus) leaping for a fly fisherman's bait. Research going back to the 1950s has shown both male and female Graylings exhibit homosexual behavior.[32]Amazon molly[33]
Blackstripe topminnow[34]
Bluegill Sunfish[35]
Char[36]
Grayling[32]
European Bitterling[37]
Green swordtail[38]
Guiana leaffish[39]
Houting Whitefish[40]
Jewel Fish[41]
Least Darter (Microperca punctulata)[42]
Mouthbreeding Fish sp.[43]
Salmon spp.[44]
Southern platyfish[45]
Ten-spined stickleback[46]
Three-spined stickleback[46]



Other vertebrates

Anole sp.[47]
Appalachian Woodland Salamander[48]
Bearded Dragon[49]
Black-spotted Frog[50]
Broad-headed Skink[51]
Checkered Whiptail Lizard[49]
Chihuahuan Spotted Whiptail Lizard[49]
Common Ameiva[49]
Common Garter Snake[52]
Cuban Green Anole[47]
Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard[49]
Desert Tortoise[53]
Fence Lizard[49]
Five-lined Skink[51]
Gopher (Pine) Snake[54]
Green Anole[47]
Inagua Curlytail Lizard[49]
Jamaican Giant Anole[47]
Laredo Striped Whiptail Lizard[49]
Largehead Anole[47]
Mountain Dusky Salamander[48]
Mourning Gecko[55]
Plateau Striped Whiptail Lizard[49]
Red Diamond Rattlesnake[56]
Red-tailed Skink[51]
Side-blotched Lizard[49]
Speckled Rattlesnake[57]
Tengger Desert Toad[58]
Water Moccasin[59]
Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis)[60]
Western Banded Gecko[55]
Whiptail Lizard spp.[49]
Wood Turtle[61]


[edit] Insects and other invertebrates


Acanthocephalan Worms[62]
Alfalfa Weevil[63]
Australian Parasitic Wasp sp.[64]
Bean weevil sp.[65]
Bedbug and other Bug spp.[66][67]
Blister Beetle spp.[68]
Blood-flukes (Schistosoma)[69]
Blowfly[70]
Box Crab[71]
Broadwinged Damselfly sp.[72]
Cabbage (Small) White (Butterfly)[73]
Checkerspot Butterfly[73]
Clubtail Dragonfly spp.[74]
Cockroach spp.[75]
Common Skimmer Dragonfly spp.[74]
Creeping Water Bug sp.[76]
Cutworm[77]
Digger Bee[78]
Dragonfly spp.[74]
Eastern Giant Ichneumon (wasp)[64]
Eucalyptus Longhorned Borer[79]
Field Cricket sp.[80]
Fruit Fly spp.[81]
Glasswing Butterfly[73]
Grape Berry Moth[82]
Grape Borer[79]
Green Lacewing[83]
Harvest Spider sp.[84]
Hawaiian Orb-Weaver (spider)[84]
Hen Flea[85]
House Fly[86]
Ichneumon wasp sp.[64]
Incirrate Octopus spp.[71]
Japanese Scarab Beetle[87]
Jumping spider sp.[84]
Larch Bud Moth[82]
Large Milkweed Bug[88]
Large White (Pieris brassicae)[89]
Long-legged Fly spp.[90]
Mazarine Blue[91]
Mediterranean Fruit Fly[81]
Mexican White[92]
Midge sp.[90]
Migratory locust[93]
Mite sp.[90]
Monarch Butterfly[73]
Narrow-winged Damselfly spp.[72]
Parsnip Leaf Miner[90]
Pomace Fly[90]
Prea[94]
Queen Butterfly[73]
Red Ant sp.[90]
Red Flour Beetle[95]
Reindeer Warble Fly[90]
Rosechafer[90]
Rove Beetle spp.[96]
Scarab Beetle (Melolonthine)[97]
Screwworm Fly[90]
Silkworm Moth[82]
Sociable Weaver[90]
Southeastern Blueberry Bee[78]
Southern Green Stink Bug[98]
Southern Masked Chafer[90]
Southern One-Year Canegrub[90]
Spreadwinged Damselfly spp.[72]
Spruce Budworm Moth[82]
Stable Fly sp.[90]
Stag Beetle spp.[99]
Tsetse Fly[90]
Water Boatman Bug[100]
Water Strider spp.[101]

I think its would be immoral to abort the baby since you can always brainwash that little sucker to be heterosexual after you've spit him out.