The pro-freedom Groenepuntmuts and sick bastards ethics

**Groenepuntmuts** · July 29, 2008, 10:05 AM

While reading what would be on television the coming week, I came across a documentary about a guy called, if I remember correctly, "the butcher of Kansas." the thread isn't about him, but about people like him. he held a man prisoner, humiliating and raping him in ways that make your stomach turn. more recently , there was the fritzl family in Austria. I hate these kind of things, they give me a feeling of a kind of fear, violence...I can't describe it. it makes me sick, it makes me sick so much I'd really like to repay the bastards in kind.

And I was thinking: I'm so incredibely freedom-loving. but all this freedom, does mean people like the butcher or josef fritzl can do what they do, because they're not being checked. there are advantages to a stasi! what a dilemma. I would never want to use chips to track people, or satillites, but this would mean people suffer in other ways... so, what do you think?

**Hound_Of_Culann** · July 29, 2008, 10:13 AM

Freedom and abuse go hand-in-hand. A society where nothing bad happens but without the freedom that makes people truly happy, is really just empty and sad. You are never going to be able to search for happiness without having to take danger into account. Life is filled with danger and even the Stasi can't take that away because in doing so, they become the danger themselves.

Trading a little freedom in for a little security makes you undeserving of neither.

**conon394** · July 29, 2008, 11:39 AM

And I was thinking: I'm so incredibely freedom-loving. but all this freedom, does mean people like the butcher or josef fritzl can do what they do, because they're not being checked. there are advantages to a stasi! what a dilemma. I would never want to use chips to track people, or satillites, but this would mean people suffer in other ways... so, what do you think?

Not really since the Stasi were mostly worried about the political safety of their masters not your personal safety – a nut job keeping personal slave did not matter, somebody wanting to abuse the government did.

Hound_Of_Culann

hey don't you own Ben Franklin credit on that

**Broken Pope** · July 29, 2008, 11:49 AM

"He who would give up a little freedom to gain a little security deserves neither and will lose them both."

**Marie Louise von Preussen** · July 29, 2008, 11:49 AM

Everything can be quickly turned to abuse and suppress others. I prefer to be free than to have a chip in my head.

**sephodwyrm** · July 29, 2008, 11:53 AM

Freedom and abuse go hand-in-hand. A society where nothing bad happens but without the freedom that makes people truly happy, is really just empty and sad.

What is the freedom that makes people truly happy?

**Blau&Gruen** · July 29, 2008, 12:25 PM

To say no, if everyone expects you to say yes. Just to test.

**~~Ummon~~** · July 30, 2008, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Blau&Gruen

To say no, if everyone expects you to say yes. Just to test.

Or to say no when everybody expects you to say yes, because it is right to say no.

Originally Posted by catinwasher

Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

Optimus custos seipsum custodiet.

**Maverick** · July 29, 2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

While reading what would be on television the coming week, I came across a documentary about a guy called, if I remember correctly, "the butcher of Kansas." the thread isn't about him, but about people like him. he held a man prisoner, humiliating and raping him in ways that make your stomach turn. more recently , there was the fritzl family in Austria. I hate these kind of things, they give me a feeling of a kind of fear, violence...I can't describe it. it makes me sick, it makes me sick so much I'd really like to repay the bastards in kind.

And I was thinking: I'm so incredibely freedom-loving. but all this freedom, does mean people like the butcher or josef fritzl can do what they do, because they're not being checked.

Neoconservative philosophy states that "freedom-loving" liberalism inevitably leads to relativism in society. For example society is now permissive of a relative degree of sexual sadism, we stop the line at what the butcher did but the idea of bdsm doesn't make your "stomach turn" the way it would the average person a generation ago. The liberals consider this progress while the conservatives believe that traditional values are important and that relativism inevitably leads to nihilism in society.

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

what do you think?

It's all relative.

I can't pick a side, I think it's easily one of the most important and difficult questions the people of the United States can ask themselves and not just at election time.

**Groenepuntmuts** · July 30, 2008, 06:28 AM

I should have started with the "security trading for freedom" quote in the first post, I knew people would use it!

we stop the line at what the butcher did but the idea of bdsm doesn't make your "stomach turn" the way it would the average person a generation ago.

Well, as long as no one is forced to things, they want it themselves don't they?

What is the freedom that makes people truly happy?

It's more that I feel freedom would make me personally more happy. but I couldn't go into parliament and demand freedom for myself only, so it's have to be there for others. I think the majority of people are too stupid to realize how important it is, that there are people willing to think about these kind of things.

I would never want a chip. I think I've made my choice. I'd rather have other people raped and tortured, then to have these bloody christian democrats know where I am at all times. I can hear the people already: "well, if you've got nothing too hide, there's no problem with chips!"

Originally Posted by Scipio Barbatus

Everything can be quickly turned to abuse and suppress others. I prefer to be free than to have a chip in my head.

Our dog has a chip, and I hate it. I wasn't there when they took him to the - what's the word in english? - pet doctor

**Maverick** · July 30, 2008, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

Well, as long as no one is forced to things, they want it themselves don't they?

Never mind.

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

It's more that I feel freedom would make me personally more happy. but I couldn't go into parliament and demand freedom for myself only, so it's have to be there for others. I think the majority of people are too stupid to realize how important it is, that there are people willing to think about these kind of things.

Ok, I'll bite. What do you want the freedom to do that you can't do now?

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

I'd rather have other people raped and tortured, then to have these bloody christian democrats know where I am at all times. I can hear the people already: "well, if you've got nothing too hide, there's no problem with chips!"

That's terrible.

**Groenepuntmuts** · July 31, 2008, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Maverick

That's terrible.

It is, but it's no more then what every single person in a "free" country is doing. but I should have changed the sentence, I mean, I'm willing to live with the idea that people can rape and torture others, if this means freedom of speech , privacy etc.

Originally Posted by Maverick

Ok, I'll bite. What do you want the freedom to do that you can't do now?

It's opposite to that; I don't what imprisonment or chips in my arm to do what they can.

**rathelios** · July 30, 2008, 07:03 AM

Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

**Groenepuntmuts** · July 30, 2008, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by catinwasher

Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

Who watches the watchmen?

**Broken Pope** · July 31, 2008, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Groenepuntmuts

Who watches the watchmen?

Erm... Coastguard?

**gambit** · July 30, 2008, 05:59 PM

Taking away the freedom wont stop the crime, crime will only adapt, and besides like Rathelios said, who will control those with the power?

No, the government wouldn't become some militaristic regime that controls every portion of our lives but do you honestly think no corruption would come of it?

There will always be a shadow behind any light, but take away that light and you have only shadow.