Discussion: should 'elite' units be available sooner?

[bigdaddy1204]

Does anyone think that it takes too long to recruit elite units in Broken Crescent?

For example, I was playing as the Byzantine Empire, and it took me 118 turns before I could train my first true 'elite cavalry' unit - the Kavallarioi heavy cavalry. It took some turns more before I could train 'elite' Pelekyphoroi infantry.

In all the game up to this point, the best cavalry I could train were the Stratiotai cavalry, which are good medium/heavy cavalry, but not really an 'elite' unit (they are supposed to be a standard medium/heavy cavalry unit, present in large numbers). Even then, I had to play the game for around 60 turns, before I could train even these units. (I was not able to train them before about the year 1200).

This was so, even though right from the beginning, I did everything I could to get these units as fast as possible. I gave top priority right from the start to upgrade farmlands in Nicaea (my biggest castle), and constructed all appropriate buildings to increase the population there as fast as possible, so that I could upgrade and gain access to these elite units.

Even carefully managing which generals were allowed to govern Nicaea, so as to prevent generals with squalor-increasing characteristics from slowing things down, it still took 118 turns to achieve it. I challenge anyone reading this to do it faster...!

Anyway, my point is this; by the time these elite units were finally available, the campaign had gone on for so long that their arrival was of litttle to no practical value. In truth, the only reason I carried on for so many turns was just to get these units. The campaign had effectively run its course some time before I could train them.

All the key battles of the campaign (against the Turks and Crusaders, for example) had already been fought and won, using lesser units such as Stratatoi cavalry and standard Skoutatoi infantry together with mercenaries.

So, I ask again; should elite units be available sooner? If we were able to train them at an earlier point in the campaign, there would be a chance that they might actually take part in some of the important battles that happen in the best part of the campaign.

What do you think?

[Ahiga]

We're doing something about that in the next patch. We'll reveal the full details in the upcoming preview.

But in general we do agree, the whole "tiering" system is very archaic, it's more a relic of traditional RTS gaming than a historical representation. If you had the wealth, the manpower, the technological institutions (Blacksmiths and such) in place, then you would be able to afford a soldier. The only way that tiering mightmake sense is that it prevents having elite warriors drawn from provincial towns.

[anaztazioch]

The only way that tiering mightmake sense is that it prevents having elite warriors drawn from provincial towns.

Shouldn AOR be the one ? eally elite units should be recruitable on in vital provinces. Their low numbers will show them even more unique.
I personally dont like a large ecruitment pool, nor low upkeep units. Im a fan of Long Road (peasants for 600 upkeep, milita for 800, spearmans for 1200+). AI wasnt moving 12 full stacks each turn, nor it didnt take long turns for larger factions. Player also couldnt manage larger army, so cant complain about no full stacks form AI.
But BC... well Levies in cities are harder to get than low tier units in castles. I can get 5 or 6 tribal javnelins, but only 2 afari skirmishers.

[The Noble Lord]

I was playing as the Byzantine Empire, and it took me 118 turns before I could train my first true 'elite cavalry' unit - the Kavallarioi heavy cavalry.

Yes, I had the same situation before. I actually had to wait 148 turns before
I could train my Kavallarioi heavy cavalry units. I didn't think its wrong or that I waited too long. I assumed its natural way of doing things in order to reach such elite units.


CHEERS

[Bull]

Yep, elite units should be available much earlier, although with a severely reduced replenish rate. So you can have one or two units of Kataphractoi or Varangian guards, but if you are careless enough to lose them.....Wait for another 10 years before you get one!!!

Personally I don't have a thing against elite units being drawn from provincial towns. Whilst the elite units may not have been trained and equipped there, these towns can contribute resources (other than florins) that make training of these units possible. Otherwise a faction with just one citadel/fortress can train and equip an elite unit just as fast as one that has a citadel but additional 10 towns/minor cities.

PS: An ERE army without its elite units isn't really much of a sight. There's just peasant spearmen, archers, skirmishers, and may be a few skutatoi and stratatoi. Oh, and the immortal general bodyguards which is the only eye-candy.

[Shadowcry]

I would generally agree, that factions such as Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Byzantines need to have their units earlier than others since all of their units are not really dependent on the timescale. But tehn I found it odd that in my turkish campaign I can build jannisaires at like 1230 rather than in like the 14th century for example.

[Douchebag]

or you can always cheat.

add_money 40000
process_cq
add_population 9999

[gadajs]

I found 2 ways of getting citadels earlier than intended, and managed to get Kavallaroi way before turn 118. I quickly took the 2 settlements east of Nicaea (in fact, I turned Nicaea into a city for profit), and converted Dorylaeum into a city. Once those 2 settlements were cities, I set their taxes to low, and built as many population enhancing attributes as possible. put young governors without squalor engancing attributes to gain an extra 1/2 a percent or so population and let the cities grow until i could build stone walls. At that point I turned them to castles, and soon fortresses and citadels. Happend at around turn 70. Also, right around that time I managed to buy the turkish fortress slightly to the east of my 2 castles, and due to the hugem population boost AI characters give, It was almost ready to upgrade too. By turn 100 I had 2 Citadels able to build Cataphracts and one building the appropriate stables.

[MrT]

Sure gadajs' ways do work but I agree with Ahiga that this tier system CA invented doesn't really make sense and gadajs solutions are only ways to get around a strange system. Personally I would rather see the better barracks much more expensive. This doesn't really solve the ottoman problem but hey

[The Noble Lord]

I found 2 ways of getting citadels earlier than intended, and managed to get Kavallaroi way before turn 118. I quickly took the 2 settlements east of Nicaea (in fact, I turned Nicaea into a city for profit), and converted Dorylaeum into a city. Once those 2 settlements were cities, I set their taxes to low, and built as many population enhancing attributes as possible. put young governors without squalor engancing attributes to gain an extra 1/2 a percent or so population and let the cities grow until i could build stone walls. At that point I turned them to castles, and soon fortresses and citadels. Happend at around turn 70. Also, right around that time I managed to buy the turkish fortress slightly to the east of my 2 castles, and due to the hugem population boost AI characters give, It was almost ready to upgrade too. By turn 100 I had 2 Citadels able to build Cataphracts and one building the appropriate stables.

Good strategy, I will try that tomorrow. I pretty much had a problem of always having to wait for the elite units. And as someone above said that Byzantine army is not much of a sight without its elite soldiers. Infantry and cavalry. Thanks.


CHEERS

[Basil 11]

It is also historically inaccurate, as many of the Byzantine units in the mod were available before the start of the mod!

[anaztazioch]

Yeah, if its for ERE or Byznatium it must be super historical accurate, super wyecandy, super strong and available from scratch.

[AnthoniusII]

Speaking for ellite troops in a mod...every moding team faces a paradox!
Afcourse as many members said not only Byzantines but ALL factions had most of the ellite units in their disposal!But...the game is primarly a battle simulator but it is a goverment sim also!
I beleive this team will think of something good to combine all nessesary factors for a realistic reqruitment!
They have the expirience to do it!

[MrT]

Yes I am sure this team can find a great solution but I think that the new AOR could allow them to increase settlement size and barrack levels of some of a faction's home provinces thereby allowing faster access to elites there. Maybe up the costs of elites as well. It should be a decision you have to make between large numerous armies or fewer elite ones. As long as you can't retrain your elites in every home province and not for a long in conquered provinces I don't think they will be overpowering in the early game if this is done.

[bigdaddy1204]

Sounds interesting! So, when is the next update coming?

Anyway, I think the system for elite units could perhaps be a bit more like Rome Total Realism - so you can train elite units from the start in one of your home provinces, but to make them anywhere else, you must build new structures for a long time... what do you think?

By the way, I've just re-installed Broken Crescent, after a couple of days with Stainless Steel. I found SS made the campaign map overloaded, causing choppy, slow performance, so I couldn't enjoy the game. Broken Crescent is the greatest!

[bigdaddy1204]

Today, I've completed a Citadel by turn 80. In 2 more turns, I'll be training Kavallarioi heavy cavalry. That's a lot quicker than in my original post. I even got Stratatoi quicker - I had them by turn 50.

Unfortunately though, as before, I've conquered Turkey already and there's little left to do in the campaign...

I really can't wait to see what the team will do with this...

[teh.frickin.pope]

Guys, the team has devised a way of doing it, that if its still what I remember, then it sounds like its gonna be a ton of fun.

[Miraj]

Guys, the team has devised a way of doing it, that if its still what I remember, then it sounds like its gonna be a ton of fun.

[teh.frickin.pope]

That's what I do, I solve problems.



Well, mostly I cause problems, but sometimes I solve them...

[Taneda Santôka]

Yea, Miraj&Co shouldn't answer question, they've got a game to mod!