Research Thread: Bulgaria

[gogo t]

Post anything related to Bulgaria here

[Kavhan Isbul]

Gogo, this weekend there is going to be an interesting reenactment of the Vurbitza Pass battle. The aprticipants are extremely serious about period accurate arms, armour and eqipment. Once the pictures are made available early next week, hopefully I will be able to post a link here.

There is going to be another reenactment on Friday in Plovdiv, by the Historical Society Bagatur. Bagatur's aim is to get young people interested in Bulgarian history and they pay little attention to the accurateness of their equipment, so their pictures should NOT be used for skins in the mod.

Pozdravi

[NikeBG]

Gogo, this weekend there is going to be an interesting reenactment of the Vurbitza Pass battle. The aprticipants are extremely serious about period accurate arms, armour and eqipment. Once the pictures are made available early next week, hopefully I will be able to post a link here.

There is going to be another reenactment on Friday in Plovdiv, by the Historical Society Bagatur. Bagatur's aim is to get young people interested in Bulgarian history and they pay little attention to the accurateness of their equipment, so their pictures should NOT be used for skins in the mod.

Pozdravi

I agree!

[gogo t]

The name Bulgaria comes from the Bulgars, a people who are still a matter of academic dispute with respect to their origin (Turkic or Indo-European) as well as to their influence on the ethnic mixture and the language of present-day Bulgaria. They are first mentioned under this name in the sources toward the end of the 5th century ad. Living at that time on the steppes to the north of the Black Sea, the Bulgar tribes were composed of skilled, warlike horsemen governed by khans (chiefs) and boyars (nobles).
The Bulgars were subdued by the Avars in the 6th century, but in 635 Khan Kubrat led a successful revolt and organized an independent tribal confederation known as Great Bulgaria. After Kubrat’s death in 642, the Bulgars were attacked by the Khazars and dispersed. According to Byzantine sources, the Bulgars split into five groups, each under one of Kubrat’s sons. One of these sons, Asparukh (or Isperikh), moved into Bessarabia (between the Dniester and Prut rivers) and then crossed to the south of the Danube, where his people conquered or expelled the Slavic tribes living north of the Balkan Mountains. The Byzantine emperor Constantine IV led an army against the Bulgars but was defeated, and in 681 Byzantium recognized by treaty Bulgar control of the region between the Balkans and the Danube. This is considered to be the starting point of the Bulgarian state.

[gogo t]

Unit list by NikeBG

my units:


Khan

General

Khan's Guars

Boils

Bagaturs

Bagains

Bulgarski Granichari

Granichari Streltzi

Chigoti \the only infantry unit of Bulgars\ - in

Leka kavaleria

Konni Streltzi

[Kavhan Isbul]

Looking good, but here are my comments. Please do not accept them as criticism, they are just suggestions for improvement so that the units look as accurate as possible:
- the helmets and the coifs on the khan and the general models are Norman in style. Taking the nasal out would improve the model significantly. What about lamellar coifs instead of mail? Just for variety (accuracy of lamellar coifs is somewhat questionable though).
- Chigot means sword-bearer, right? If so, making them a swordsmen unit instead of spearmen would be better, although this is not hugely important.
- Overall, tons of armour, and all of it is made of iron. How about some leather/horn lamellar? I think I see axes in some of the models, which is nice. However, the axes used by Khazars/Bulgars/Magyars back in the 7th-10th century were quite different from those used in Northern Europe. The clothing is also somewhat dull, pictures from Menalogy of Basil show the Bulgarians slaying the Romans in some more colorful clothes. If someone is willing to work on improving the clothing and weapons, I would be happy to provide pictures.

The reenactment of the Varbitza Pass battle happened last weekend as planned, but unfortunately the Bulgarians were mostly represented by participants, who joined without much preparation and their equipment is often hardly representative of what Krum's warriors wore. I will see if I can select some of the pictures and post them here, I am yet looking for a picture that features a nciely equipped Bulgarian, and no shields made of garbage dumpster lids and fantasy swords.

[gogo t]

soory for the bg, i just can't explain it in english
Приятелю, правя ги с такива шлемове щото играта има само такива, а на генерала само оръжието може да се сменя (и на хана) всичко друго е едно цяло. За бронята- така са описани така са направени

[Kavhan Isbul]

soory for the bg, i just can't explain it in english
Приятелю, правя ги с такива шлемове щото играта има само такива, а на генерала само оръжието може да се сменя (и на хана) всичко друго е едно цяло. За бронята- така са описани така са направени

Няма проблем - ако не можеш да смениш шлемовете на генерала и на хана, ще си останат с такива. За доспехите ми се видяха твърде тежко бронирани повечето единици. Находките на ризници от това време са сравнително редки, но ги е имало, защото са описани в разни инвентарни списъци, където пише кой боил колко има (и съответно колко воина може да въоръжи и изпрати в момент на нужда). Само че поне по отношение на ламелаарните и люспестите доспехи, са известни само една-две находки (при това едната е от Преслав, т.е. по-късна) и пластините биха стигнали само за покриване на гръдния кош. При това положение аз бих запазил ламеларните доспехи за най-елитните части - за ханската гвардия, за багатурите и за боилите, както всъщност общо звето си направил и ти. Вече въпросът е дали и пехотата трябва да има ризници (примерно граничарите-стрелци), но това си е твоя преценка, тук вече всичко зависи от баланса - от една страна е хубаво битките да са между истински воини, а не опълчения и селяни, от друга ще е малко кофти ако българите в ризници с няколко вида тежки конници газят ромейски пелтасти по туники - няма да е интересно.
Поздрави

[gogo t]

This is the unit list- they give it to me, I do it, that's my job, and the Chigots are with spears couse it will be more balansed
-Канска Стража/Kanska Strazha/Knan's Guard - the bodyguards of the khan and the other generals. Armed with a spear, sabre, shield and wearing lamellar and under it mail armour. The horse is heavily armoured - Heavy Cavalry - general's bodyguards
-Боили/Boili/Boils - High nobles. Armed with a sabre, bow and a shield. Heavily armoured horseman wearing scale and under it mail armour, little armour on the horse (mainly protecting the chest and the head) - Heavy Cavalry
-Багатури/Bagaturi/Bagaturs - Nobles and veteran warriors. Armed with a spear, sabre, scale and double-padded armour, shield and little armour on the horse (mainly protecting the chest and the head)- Medium-heavy Cavalry
-Багаини/Bagaini/Bagains - Nobles from a lower stature. Armed with a spear, bow, shield and chain-mail - Medium Cavalry
-Конни Стрелци/Konni Streltsi/Horse archers - Normal citizens. Armed with a bow and sabre and without armour - Light Cavalry/Horse Archers
-Лека Кавалерия/Leka Kavaleria/Light cavalry - Armed with an axe and a spear. No armour or padded one and no shield - Light Cavalry
-Български Гранични Стрелци/Bulgarski Granichni Streltsi/Bulgar Border Archers - Light horse archers, with a bow, sabre and padded armour - Horse Archers
-Български Граничари/Bulgarski Granichari/Bulgar Border Guards - Light cavalry with a spear/axe and padded or light mail armour - Light Cavalry
-Чиготи/Chigoti/Chigots - Very well armoured - scale and mail armour, foot-soldiers with a sword/spear and a shield - Heavy Infantry

edit- but after a consideration NikeBg tell me to make the Grani4ars with chain mail couse they were ment to be a upgreat of light horsemans

[Kavhan Isbul]

You have valid reasons for what you are doing and the roster is very nice. Here are some pictures I picked from the reenactment last weekend.

First, a picture of a bagatur. The splint-mail greaves and the vambraces I believe are modelled after the warrior depicted on a jug from the Naggy Sent Miklosh (or however you spell it) treasure.



Here are two "poorer" Bulgarians, unable to afford the best armor, so their lamellar is leather. I am not sure about the shoulder defenses and the little skirt protrusions, but as far as the torso is concerned, the model is pretty good:



Finally, a picture of a lamellar vest:



Hopefully this is all useful.

[NikeBG]

Well, I must admit I'd like some more lighter-armoured units too, with leather, felt (плъст; especially this one) armours or even simple clothes (like these two). I'm also thinking of adding some "dismounted archers" unit of some kind, for gameplay reasons (you can't put horse archers to shoot from the walls). But especially for the armours I'm not sure if they can be implemented correctly (especially the felt armour (like on this Byzantine cataphract)).

[gogo t]

i made them

[gogo t]

here

[gogo t]

coments ?

[alien_t]

Just brilliant

[Kavhan Isbul]

This looks awesome, thank you so much! I think the blue scarf is actually part of the padding under the helmet, but the way it is incorporated in the model is quite nice, as it adds color. Everything about this model is very well recreated - the belt, the greaves, the vambraces, the tunic underneath the mail shirt - superbly done.
NikeBG's pictures of light horsemen are very good, especially the Vuchkov's illustration from Yotov's book. This is shaping nicely.

[NikeBG]

coments ?

As always, awesome work! Can't give you anymore rep though - have to spread it around first!

[gogo t]

Is this khan better than my older one

[alien_t]

Mmmmm great. I like it more than previous one.
The old texture we can use for a captain may be?

[Boztorgai_Khan]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129159