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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    As the global economic situation get worse, the government is considering relaxing the very fiscal rules its introduced. Representative of the whole span of New Labour leadership, it seems the government will further increase the national debt to avoid the tough decisions on expenditure and tax levels that the current economic climate demands.

    Yet for some reason, many people seem to hold the belief that Gordon Brown and New Labour have been good for the British economy, and that any economic problems Britain faces today are entirely due to external factors. However, while blaming global factors for the current economic poblems, many New Labour supporters claim that the previous years of economic growth were mainly down to New Labour, including the often repeated "longest sustained economic growth ever" boast.

    It’s probably this belief in economic competence that won New Labour their last election. While they have not been as damaging as previous Labour governments, they are most certainly living up to the historic standard of Labour – building upon Conservative initiated change, and leaving an economic mess for the next Conservative government to deal with.

    Gordon Brown and New Labour are not the ‘safe pair of hands’ or prudent stewards of our economy as some would believe, and this forcoming U turn on fiscal rules is hardly a break from the past…

    The “longest period of sustained economic growth in our history”
    or so the boast proclaims

    Even if we accept this as fact (which itself is dubious - see further below), there is something New Labour are neglecting to mention – namely that it was the Conservatives who were by and large responsible for kick starting such growth;

    “In a reference to Arsenal's now-broken run of 49 matches without a loss, Mr Brown said the UK had gone one better with 50 successive quarters of growth, cunningly pulling a magician's cloak over the fact that 15 of those quarters were achieved under the Tories.

    “…the UK has enjoyed unbroken economic growth since 1992, without falling into negative growth in any quarter”

    The fact that Britain’s economy has grown under Labour should be no surprise - global economic growth, cheap credit, cheap goods and emerging markets from China and Co; combined with the previous domestic actions of the Conservatives such as decreased power of unions, post-ERM boom, and responsible fiscal policies. Yet even the the accuracy of the claim should be doubted, the BBC link above continues:

    “The difficulty in assessing the validity of the Chancellor's claim is that there are no quarterly economic growth figures before 1955, so we cannot measure brief recessions before that period.

    There are, however, annual figures produced by the international think-tank, the OECD, that go back to 1820, although earlier data are estimates by historians.

    These show that during the 20-year post-war economic boom, between 1953 and 1973, Britain grew continually on an annual basis - but that growth was interrupted by several short, quarterly slowdowns.

    But, as leading economic historian Nick Crafts points out, if you want to know whether people are actually better off, it is significant that the average annual economic growth rate per person in the 1950s and l960s was substantially higher than it is today.

    (...the party that was in power for the “substantially higher” economic growth of the 50s and 60s?...Conservatives from 1951 to 1964)

    As for how this growth serves us today, the OECD predicts that the UK will be the only major economy to go through a recession this financial year ('What is the economic outlook for the OECD countries? An interim assessment'. News Coverage); and this isn't because our economic growth has been exceptional either: From 1997 the economy of the UK has grown the slowest of all English speaking countries (OECD.stat)

    Debt
    What little growth Gordon Brown can claim responsibility for has been fuelled by easy credit; leading to unbalanced and unsustainable growth; and now the façade is beginning to crack with the ‘credit crunch’, falling house prices, inflation, etc.

    “When the Chancellor inherited the economy from the Conservatives he was a very lucky Chancellor indeed and his fiscal policy was, initially, very sound,” says Ruth Lea, director of the Centre for Policy Studies. But that was then and this is now. Old Labour allegiances have crept to the fore and, concludes Lea, “under his stewardship economic and productivity growth have slowed, the balance of payments figures have worsened, private-sector employment growth has fallen, the fiscal situation has deteriorated and international competitiveness has fallen

    Household sector debt has now reached the £1 trillion mark, the highest level in our history, and the highest-per-household of any G7 country – ever.

    Public finances are in similar shape. Public debt stands at 43.8% of GDP - £618.8 billion. New Labour would like to argue that debt as % of GDP has decreased since 1997, and it has – by 1.3% (Note: This is not longer accurate with the nationalisation of Northern Rock, read below). But this statistical use masks the extent of Britain's debt increase under New Labour.

    When Labour came in to power (Table S2.5) total debt stood at £350 billion it has since increased by 76.8% to £618.8 billion. In a time of global economic prosperity and domestic GDP growth reducing national debt should have been a no-brainier; “saving for a rainy day” so to speak. Now we have a government that is in over its head; and when an economic downturn has arrived finds itself with no room to manoeuvre. (Other than to backtrack on its own fiscal rules of course.)


    Simply paying the interest on this debt costs the tax payer £31 billion a year(Charts 1.1 & 1.2):



    Thats more than we spend on “Industry, Agriculture, Employment and Training” and only two billion less than we do on defence.

    For the last two years that New Labour clings to power, it looks things will get worse – they are hardly going to raise taxes and/ or curtail expenditure in their current situation; highlighted by recent reconsiderations of their own fiscal policies. How much worse is hard to estimate, but the last budget (see above linked charts) detailed the government spending £43 billion more than it received in taxes. So we could realistically expect to see at least another £86 billion added to the public debt by the next general election.

    However, this look at debt does not consider all public liabilities. Then the figure becomes really worrying.



    The latest Public Finances Report, by the Office of National Statistics, (more recent and reliable than the last budget report) has this graph:



    The fact that it is measured as % of GDP is very important. Previously, Labour had been able to hide its huge increase in national debt (see opening post) behind GDP growth - expressed as a %, this increase appeared nominal; though in real terms it was not so. Now that the S has well and truly HTF, this statistical mirage no longer the works - their borrowing has caught up with them and despite overseeing a long period of economic prosperity; New Labour has failed to lower the national debt as a % of GDP, and has significantly increased it in real terms.

    Employment
    Despite the supporters of New Labour so keenly telling us how bad Britain had it under the Conservatives, with 3 million unemployed being the usual example; it seems they have chosen to gloss over the fact that there are over nine million unemployed or "unoccupied" people of working age withing the United Kingdom (Office of National Statistics), only 1.71 million of which can be explained away by those in education.

    Below shows by how much each respective country managed to reduce (shown as %) their standardised unemployment rate between 1997 and 2007. The United Kingdom reduced their unemployment rate by less than all English speaking countries with the exception of the USA. (OECD.stat)
    Country: Reduction in Unemployment rate (%)
    Ireland: 52.5%
    Australia: 46.9%
    New Zealand: 45.4%
    Canada: 34%
    United Kingdom: 22%
    United States: 6%

    In the same period, the UK has also gone from the second lowest unemployment rate of the group, to the second highest.

    Taxation
    In 1996-7 the then Conservative government took £285.4 billion in taxation. (table S2.4)

    The last budget detailed the now New Labour government taking £575 billion (Chart 1.2)

    An increase of £289.6 billion, or an increase of just over 101%. Of course this doubling of the tax burden would not look so great of a jump measured as % of GDP, especially once adjusted for inflation. However, if the tax burden had remained the same in real terms (as in adjusted for the level of inflation) since 1996, the average household would be paying £5,140 less in taxation. Even if it had stayed the same as % of GDP, each household would be paying £1,600 less.

    To top this all off, it is the poorest fifth of households that have the highest tax burden in relation to income; and that the tax burden gap between the poorest fifth and richest fifth has actually increased under New Labour. Admittedly the worsening in inequality has been very small, but this is the self styled ‘party for the people, with boasts that Britain is a ‘fairer place’.

    Most would expect increased expenditure under a New Labour government; but what may suprise some, however, is the extent to which this has outstripped that of other governments. New Labour had the benefit to inherit a tax system that drained less of the nations wealth than the OECD average, but as soon as they had won their second term (and so once thier pledge to keep expenditure as low as the Conservatives had 'expired' two years earlier); the amount of GDP being taken by the government rapidly rose above the OECD average:


    (OECD Outlook 81, Annex, Table 25. Google Books scan)


    Its not just the average citizen that has picked up the bill for this bloated government - our businesses have been hit with an uncompetetive corporation tax bill. In 1996, Britain had the 5th lowest corporation tax in the OECD, we now have the 19th lowest. Even with the recent reduction to 28%, Britain still has a Corporation tax rate higher than the OECD and EU average. (KPMG Corporate Tax Survey 2007, news coverage)

    The supply side economics ('voodoo economics', to the nay-sayers) that had benfited Britain in the past under the Conservatives have been ignored under Brown. If there is one thing that proves the benfits of lower taxes to public finances, it is the case of Ireland. With a Corporation Tax of 12.5%, a sensible guess might be that that they get a lot less income per capita via this tax, than the UK with our hefty 28% tax. Sensible, but wrong.


    (OECD.stat, (Revenue Statistics))


    Expenditure
    This large increase in taxation might have been justifiable if it saw a proportionally beneficial improvement in our public services – however, these are most certainly not twice as good as they were.

    For example, let’s take the NHS. In 1996 the NHS (stats on England alone) received just under £33 billion a year.



    As you can see by 2004 in was receiving over £56 billion, and this year it will be £90 billion (next link for source). Under current government projections funding for the entire NHS would have risen to £110 billion by 2010. In real terms this amounts to an increase of £35 billion; almost a doubling of funds available for the NHS.

    The NHS most isn’t twice as good as in 1997, even under any government provided statistical measurement. Being eight at the time, I’m hardly in the position to make any claims on personal experience, however it appears most would agree – the BBC has reported that 4 out of 10 think there has been no improvement, and only 1 in 3 there has been any improvement at all. Personally I think there has been a small improvement, but when put alongside how much money has been spent, it becomes clear that New Labour has wasted a great opportunity. The picture is similar elswhere in the public sector: the UK's ranking in the OECDs Program for International Student Asessment (PISA) has slumped under New Labour; recorded crime has increased; and since its privatisation was completed under New Labour, the rail network recieves more funding than (nationalised) British Rail did.

    This is representative of New Labour’s ‘solution’ to most problems (throw money at it), and the results have been underwhelming; the tax burden unjustifiable (now 42.6% of our GDP), and in the process wasted billions of taxpayers money. With the recent record levels of borrowing by Labour and the addition of Northern Rock debts, our national debt is above the 40% ceiling than Gordon Brown had set out in his seong fiscal rule.

    Efficiency
    To add insult to injury, if our public expenditure was as efficient as USA or Japan we could decrease government expenditure by 16%, without a drop in the quality of the public services that are currently provided.

    As the link states, that would be a saving to the taxpayer of £70 billion!

    …in 2003. Since the report was written government expenditure has increased significantly. As you can see by the budget pie chart above, expenditure this year will amount to £618 billion – 16% of that being £98 billion. Or, if you like, a reduction of the tax burden on each household by £3,967.

    Drawbacks of a High Tax Economy
    Even if New Labour had spent our money wisely, we would still be left with the negative effects of not only a high tax burden, but also an over complicated one, upon our economy. A simple measure of the increasing complication of our tax code comes from is Tolley's Yellow Tax Handbook:

    “…the accountants' "bible", comprised a mere 4,555 pages when Mr Brown walked into the Treasury. This year's edition weighs in at 9,806 pages

    Our high and complicated tax regime has knocked us out of the Index of Economic Freedom’s “Free” economy classification, down to “mostly free”.

    A Centre for Policy Studies report (bottom page of link) on the impact of ‘big government’, using data from the World Bank, OECD and IMF show that ‘slim governments’ (government revenue and expenditure below 40% of GDP) out perform ‘big governments’ (over 40% of GDP) on nearly all indicators; for instance:

    • Slim governments GDP grew at an average of 5.4% a year since 1998, compared to 2.1% for bigger governments
    • Slim governments ran an average budget surplus of 0.3% of GSP, compared to -1.1% for big governments
    • Slim governments spend more of GDP on public services (non-social benefit transfers) than big governments
    • Slim governments spend less on education as % of GDP yet match university enrolment rates of big governments
    (N.B all Nations used in study are classified as advanced by the OECD or are in the EU)

    A similar report form the Institute of Economic Affairs makes similar points on the drawbacks of high taxation, for instance:


    That Gold Sale
    In 1999 Gordon Brown took the decision to sell half of Britain's Gold reserves.

    At the lowest price gold had been in the previous twenty years.

    The resulting dip in market prices of gold has become known as the Brown Bottom. The Times article on the sale would be laughable if it were not so scary that this is the man who has been running Britain's finances:


    “The timing of the decision was ludicrous. We told them you are going to push the gold price down before you sell,” said Peter Fava, then head of precious metal dealing at HSBC who was present at the meeting. “We thought it was a disastrous decision; we couldn’t understand it. We brought up a lot of potential problems at the meeting.”

    Martin Stokes, former vice-president at JP Morgan, who was also present, said: “I was surprised they had chosen the auction method. It indicated they did not have a real understanding of the gold market.”
    According to other sources, however, Bank of England officials told those present they had “little say” about what was going to happen and that they were “doing what they were told”. This was a decision made by Brown and his inner circle, who appeared uninterested in their expert advice.

    ~
    The decision to sell 400 tons of gold is seen in City circles as a financial bungle on the scale of the Tories’ “Black Wednesday” that cost the taxpayer £3.3 billion, according to Treasury estimates.
    Dominic Hall, a former gold dealer who now runs thebulliondesk.com, a website for the gold market, said: “Brown was keen to throw mud at the opposition over Black Wednesday but this was a financial disaster on a similar scale.”

    ~
    For the past 18 months The Sunday Times has been battling the Treasury to release the advice it received on the gold sales under freedom of information laws. Brown’s department has sought — so far successfully — to use a range of legal exemptions to block disclosure.


    The cost of this? £3 billion

    And the list goes on…
    A report from the Tax Payers Alliance highlights further failures of the New Labour government. Below are a few of the points that stand out. Underneath each point are the sources used to gather the appropriate data by the TPA:

    I’ll end with another excerpt form the Institute of Economic Affairs publication, something that should trouble anyone wishing for a smaller government in Britain…


    Last edited by Kleos; September 20, 2008 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Updated with new information (see second page)
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  2. #2
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    The most interesting part of that piece was the government spending to tax revenue. There's a shortfall of £43 billion last year which is being serviced by borrowing which in turn means we pay £31 billion just to service it, as a conservative I believe we should freeze all increases on public sector spending until our GDP growth closes the gap, we don't want to be like America were 20% of tax revenue is spent on servicing national debts.

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    MasterOfNone's Avatar RTW Modder 2004-2015
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Socialist polices will always waste money and can never produce progress let alone success.

    As a conservative we need to put these services back into the private sector and keep government limited to protecting our freedoms.
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    nice post. one question about the pie chart though. whats the difference between "social protection", "personal social services" and "public order and saftey" they all sound like they are the same or partly atlest.

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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    The most interesting part of that piece was the government spending to tax revenue. There's a shortfall of £43 billion last year which is being serviced by borrowing which in turn means we pay £31 billion just to service it, as a conservative I believe we should freeze all increases on public sector spending until our GDP growth closes the gap, we don't want to be like America were 20% of tax revenue is spent on servicing national debts.
    And things literally get worse by the day with this government:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7513309.stm

    "Borrowing so far this financial year has reached £24.4bn since April - the biggest quarterly figure since 1946."

    A quarter of the financial year in, and we've already borrowed more than half of what had been estimated for the whole year!


    Quote Originally Posted by LoZz View Post
    nice post. one question about the pie chart though. whats the difference between "social protection", "personal social services" and "public order and saftey" they all sound like they are the same or partly atlest.
    "Public Order and Safety" would be the Police, but yeah, "Social Protection" and "Personal Social Services" would be bascially the same thing, incapacity benefit, unemployment benefit, council housing, and other trappings of the welfare state.

    The worrying thing is that only around £60 billion is spent on pensions and £6.3 billion on incapacity benefit...which leaves £129.7 billion being spent on "Social Protection" and "Personal Social Services" that is arguably unnecessary; and would better help the poor in the form of an increased personal allowance in national insurance and income tax.
    'Nature is indifferent to our love, but never unfaithful'
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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    @OP. So many problems, what about solutions? What should I do as a young British voter?




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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    @OP. So many problems, what about solutions? What should I do as a young British voter?
    On a national level, the solution is simply to end budget deficits through either reducing spending or raising taxes, and to start actually reducing debt -not just paying the interest.

    A difficult decision to take in the current economic climate yes, but Thatcher raised taxes in her early premiership to cut public borrowing, having inherited high rates of public borrowing form the previous Labour government. Along with her actions to target inflation these efforts were deeply unpopular, but she held firm...




    As for what can a young British voter do, my initial instinct was to scream vote Conservative - but at risk of sounding too partisan; I'll simply point out that Labour governments have always ended like this - weakening of the pound, public sector strikes, high public borrowing, economic turmoil.

    The Lib-dems seem to be making a cautious approach towards supporting smaller government, but the Conservatives appear far more realistic, with Cameron saying

    "Government always has to do what is right to safeguard the public finances"

    even if it means short term tax cuts.
    'Nature is indifferent to our love, but never unfaithful'
    'A true conservative must necessarily be a conservationist'
    Edward Abbey
    'The usual socialist disease: they have run out of other people's money' Thatcher

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    I would vote for bnp, maybe they could sort out immigration problem, maybe not, but if that fails conservative. Labour couldent be trusted with the air we breath, let alone money and gold.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    all voters should worry about where all the wealth of this country has gone too,, new labour and the tories have sold everything off,, power,, water ,,telecoms,, everything, OUR COUNTRY IS IN THE HANDS OF FOREIGN BUSINESS,,
    all the essentials they should have been looking after,,
    beats me how these companys make massive profits year on year,,
    and when they were publicly owned they made massive losses year on year
    serious new labour mis management,, they should be locked up for criminal mismanagement,,,
    oh i vote SNP ALWAYS HAVE ALWAYS WILL,,

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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    I would vote for bnp, maybe they could sort out immigration problem, maybe not, but if that fails conservative. Labour couldent be trusted with the air we breath, let alone money and gold.
    The BNP would be a catastrophe for the UK. Increased economic regulation, against free-trade, and even in their current position they are marginalising any possible rational debate on immigration by their extreme stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by THE HIGHLANDER View Post
    all voters should worry about where all the wealth of this country has gone too,, new labour and the tories have sold everything off,, power,, water ,,telecoms,, everything, OUR COUNTRY IS IN THE HANDS OF FOREIGN BUSINESS,,
    all the essentials they should have been looking after,,
    Privatisation has been a success. Enhanced competition, increased investment in appropiate infrastucture, lower prices for the consumer. There are examples where it has been handled poorly, yes -the rail network springs to mind- but there is no doubt that overall privatisation has been beneficial to this country.

    beats me how these companys make massive profits year on year,,
    and when they were publicly owned they made massive losses year on year
    These companies are making massive profits because the free market is far more efficient than central government. With privatisation National liabilities have become market assets. Before these companies were a drain on public finances, now these companies contribute to tax revenue, via Corporation Tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Same story as I have allready posted, see last link of my last post.

    Like I said, the economy and public finances comes first - if that means short term tax rises (Like Thatcher needed to resort to) to clear up the mess of New Labour, then it is a necessary action that has to be taken. I fail to see how this realsitic and honest fore-warning from Cameron results in him having "no clue".
    'Nature is indifferent to our love, but never unfaithful'
    'A true conservative must necessarily be a conservationist'
    Edward Abbey
    'The usual socialist disease: they have run out of other people's money' Thatcher

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Whatever Bnp would do it cant be any worse Than new labour, infact i think new labour is secretly BNP except New labour doesnt do a thing to stop immigration and BNP would. Saying that though i did say if not bnp then conservative, though i wouldent know what the difference between the two are, i just think David Cameron is confident and puts forward strong arguments, Can anyone tell me what the difference is between labour and conservative ? im guessing like labour fights for the rights of working class, and conservative for the rich and upper class ? kinda like populares and optimates in ancient rome ?.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Can anyone tell me what the difference is between labour and conservative ?
    The past few years has been a battle for the middle ground among the main parties, so they have become quite similar; though basically Labour is centre left, Conservative centre right.

    im guessing like labour fights for the rights of working class, and conservative for the rich and upper class ?
    Not in practice.
    As I linked in my opening post, the burden of taxation on the poor has increased under New Labour, that on the rich decreased. The tax burden on the nation as a whole has increased under New Labour and it is ultimately the poor who suffer from any tax increase - businesses can pass the cost of increased tax onto consumers and the richest have access to offshore accounts, are in a better position to exploit any loopholes or simply move . Then there are many other issues that would take too long to go into - too high a minimum wage effecting jobs supply, mass immigration increasing competition for low-skilled jobs, welfare dependency...

    Then there is fiscal responsibility: see my opening post for arguments against Labour, while the Conservatives have shown a great deal of realism in not ruling out tax rises to deal with the mess left by New Labour.
    Last edited by Kleos; July 21, 2008 at 09:40 AM.
    'Nature is indifferent to our love, but never unfaithful'
    'A true conservative must necessarily be a conservationist'
    Edward Abbey
    'The usual socialist disease: they have run out of other people's money' Thatcher

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleos View Post
    Like I said, the economy and public finances comes first - if that means short term tax rises (Like Thatcher needed to resort to) to clear up the mess of New Labour, then it is a necessary action that has to be taken. I fail to see how this realsitic and honest fore-warning from Cameron results in him having "no clue".
    Or more likely to address the needs of our huge economy, low taxes are simply not practical thus any lowering of the taxes will be at the sacrifice and huge disadvantage in many areas such as the NHS, and Military. Although the Tories wouldn't hesitate to privatise everything if they had the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Whatever Bnp would do it cant be any worse Than new labour, infact i think new labour is secretly BNP except New labour doesnt do a thing to stop immigration and BNP would. Saying that though i did say if not bnp then conservative, though i wouldent know what the difference between the two are, i just think David Cameron is confident and puts forward strong arguments, Can anyone tell me what the difference is between labour and conservative ? im guessing like labour fights for the rights of working class, and conservative for the rich and upper class ? kinda like populares and optimates in ancient rome ?.
    Are you joking? Comparing the BNP to Labour and the Tory party? They are not even in the same universe, never mind league.

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    I thought labour was already increasing taxes, there milking us for every penny already, we should be lowering not rasing taxes, i have to pay extra money just because i have an older car, and just because i dont recycle, did you hear these latest bull taxes to come out of Num 10, Brown is a illegal PM anyway he never got elected in so i think it should be fair he should of held a General Election right from the start.

    My vote will be for Lib Dems until i see someone who will sort this counbtry out, though i only want someone for the short term because i wish to move out of this country in a few years.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    I thought labour was already increasing taxes, there milking us for every penny already, we should be lowering not rasing taxes, i have to pay extra money just because i have an older car, and just because i dont recycle, did you hear these latest bull taxes to come out of Num 10,
    Its pretty hard right now, but won;t be changin any time soon not even with a new party in power.

    Brown is a illegal PM anyway he never got elected in so i think it should be fair he should of held a General Election right from the start.
    He was elected, he is an MP. He won the Party Leadership due to him being unopposed and the Queen appointed him as the leader of the biggest party in the House of Commons Prime Minister.

    My vote will be for Lib Dems until i see someone who will sort this counbtry out, though i only want someone for the short term because i wish to move out of this country in a few years.
    Good Luck the Lib Dems are noramlly a protest vote, its their greatest asset, disgruntled Labour folk like me vote for them.

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    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Or more likely to address the needs of our huge economy, low taxes are simply not practical thus any lowering of the taxes will be at the sacrifice and huge disadvantage in many areas such as the NHS, and Military.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kleos View Post
    To add insult to injury, if our public expenditure was as efficient as USA or Japan we could decrease government expenditure by 16%, without a drop in the quality of the public services that are currently provided.

    As the link states, that would be a saving to the taxpayer of £70 billion!

    …in 2003. Since the report was written government expenditure has increased significantly. As you can see by the budget pie chart above, expenditure this year will amount to £618 billion – 16% of that being £98 billion. Or, if you like, a reduction of the tax burden on each household by £3,967.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kleos View Post
    The worrying thing is that only around £60 billion is spent on pensions and £6.3 billion on incapacity benefit...which leaves £129.7 billion being spent on "Social Protection" and "Personal Social Services" that is arguably unnecessary; and would better help the poor in the form of an increased personal allowance in national insurance and income tax.
    There is plenty of room for maneuver for lowering taxes.

    Although the Tories wouldn't hesitate to privatise everything if they had the chance.
    Had the chance? The NHS is 60 years old. Of those 60 years the Conservatives were in power for 35. They have "had the chance", they did not and will not privatise the NHS or "everything".

    The only realistic candidates for privatisation are Channel 4, Tote, the BBC, the Royal Mail, the remaining water companies like Scottish Water and various government holdings in companies like British Energy. Each one of those could be privatised without doing any harm, and if necessary retaining some form of control through 'Golden Shares'. And Cameron hasn't talked of privatising even that selection.
    Last edited by Kleos; July 21, 2008 at 01:56 PM.
    'Nature is indifferent to our love, but never unfaithful'
    'A true conservative must necessarily be a conservationist'
    Edward Abbey
    'The usual socialist disease: they have run out of other people's money' Thatcher

  18. #18
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    A great post. I will go back and reread some and compare to some stuff I have been saving.

    The irony is that such growth and stability probably needs both Labor and Tory leadership over time to succeed. Thatcher was needed to begin the privatization and to shut down make-work jobs. Compensation begain to reflect productive contributions again. The support and sharing of pain over job losses was not handled well though. The Tories then lost credibility after booting Thatcher out. Blair and company manged to change the face of Labor and continue the policies with a bit more compassion. Brown is now proving that this does not mean Labor is capable of cutting back and rebalancing the economy. Being a part of the Blair team most responsible for the growth does not mean as PM he makes a good stategic planner without Blair at his side. The Tories will be needed again and the cycle will continue.

    This is one reason why a two party system fighting for the middle allows for change without completely abandoning the opposition policies completely.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleos View Post
    Had the chance? The NHS is 60 years old. Of those 60 years the Conservatives were in power for 35. They have "had the chance", they did not and will not privatise the NHS or "everything".
    By chance, i mean if the population became rich over night. Until that day the Tories are the mercy of poor common folk.

  20. #20
    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: UK Economy and Public Finance under New Labour

    question: what is in the "other" wedge? embezzlements? bribes? do tell....
    The Duke of Dunwich and surrounding fiefdom

    For any who are interested by my FF on occurrences in Rhun and beyond; I have begun a new project (not because the old one is finished, just opening more room for ideas) about one of the minor characters, Rankal. It is in the Third Age AAR index and here is the link http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376994

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