If religion was a disorder, could it be cured?

[Nutsack]

I usually don't post in the Ethos, less alone submit threads in it. But recently I've been scanning around and reading some very solid posts as to why there really isn't any positive reason to be religious, and that belief might even be a disorder. Faced with all of these solid arguments, I still haven't seen a single religious person be convinced into quitting their belief. Is it because as soon as a religious person notices a convincing story he closes his eyes into ignorance? Or is it because religion is a disorder without a cure? Then why is is impossible to cure this disorder?

Please tell me stories of how you have confronted religious people with strong arguments and the aftermath. And what I want to know most of all, has anybody actually managed to convince a believer to become agnostic or atheist?

(This thread began as a rant and I removed a lot of text, so thank me for sparing you some time )

[roy34543]

Add an ethnicity rather then just saying religion in general and your post sounds quite racist nutsack. Its never been a good thing to try and theorize how to systematically wipe out a kind of culture.

[chriscase]

Add an ethnicity rather then just saying religion in general and your post sounds quite racist nutsack. Its never been a good thing to try and theorize how to systematically wipe out a kind of culture.

I don't think we accord quite the same status to ideas as human lives. If we did, we'd all be mass murderers.

[Ummon]

I don't think we accord quite the same status to ideas as human lives. If we did, we'd all be mass murderers.

Oh, but you don't cure ideas, you cure people...

[chriscase]

No but its not quite positive either. Im just saying think about it. If you said "or is it because judaism is a disorder without a cure" "Then why is it impossible to cure judaism?" It would sound quite racist. Put in hinduism or islam or Christianity or even atheism at that and it does sound quite Well sort of racist i guess. Or the religion-based equivalant.

Sure, it's a distinction that has to be made: we are not talking about ethnic cleansing here.

Oh, but you don't cure ideas, you cure people...

Yes, I'd say "cure" might have some overtones that would strike the faithful as offensive. For some reason, people don't seem to like it when their most cherished ideas are treated as pathological.

To the OP, if religion is a disease, it's a social one. I would be more inclined to see it as a symptom rather than a root cause. So the root cause needs to be found in order to efect a "cure". If this turns out to be the case, there is no need to argue the issue. Once the root cause is addressed, religion will naturally lose its influence and fade into the past.

[Ummon]

Yes, I'd say "cure" might have some overtones that would strike the faithful as offensive. For some reason, people don't seem to like it when their most cherished ideas are treated as pathological.

More correctly, it could be said that people do not like it when their well-motivated ideas are treated as pathological by people who have no right or title to do so.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Add an ethnicity rather then just saying religion in general and your post sounds quite racist nutsack. Its never been a good thing to try and theorize how to systematically wipe out a kind of culture.

Except he's not talking about an ethnicity and even if he was it wouldn't sound racist because he used the words "cure" not eradication. Not racist at all.

But anyway, no, it would be impossible to "cure" theists at this point because many of them are so sure of their faith that they can't see themselves not being Christian or Muslim. People are so sure heaven exists they want to get to it. They are teaching their children the same things they were taught, it's a vicious cycle of early indoctrination that supresses free thought.

When ar epeople generally baptized. When they are infants. When they can't choose for themselves. I don't think that's a coincidence.

[Nutsack]

How exactly am I trying to theorize on how to wipe out a culture? Point is, I am in no way theorizing such a terrible thing and neither would I ever do so, now stick to the point and quit putting words into my mouth?

By analyzing my post you might also discover that I have never accused religion of being a disorder (in fact I respect believers), but only that if it was, how could it be cured? Consider it more of an analogy. Thanks for the kind response though.

[Ummon]

Interesting thread. Atheism alas, is equally pathological. A case of undue oversimplification.

Could it be cured as well?

[roy34543]

I don't think we accord quite the same status to ideas as human lives. If we did, we'd all be mass murderers.

No but its not quite positive either. Im just saying think about it. If you said "or is it because judaism is a disorder without a cure" "Then why is it impossible to cure judaism?" It would sound quite racist. Put in hinduism or islam or Christianity or even atheism at that and it does sound quite Well sort of racist i guess. Or the religion-based equivalant.

[portugal11]

if being religious makes them happy, why not let them be

[Cluny the Scourge]

if being religious makes them happy, why not let them be

Because they aren't content to just be happy with their religion - they attempt to impose unjust laws upon the rest of us, or discretionary use of authority against us, founded on the legitimacy of their false beliefs.

But I agree that this particular "disorder" (for it is a form of insanity) cannot be cured from without. Of course people do abandon religion sometimes, but it stems from movement within themselves only.

There was a guy on this forum who used to preach Catholic ideas on every subject a couple of years ago, who went quiet for a couple of weeks and then announced out of the blue that he'd lost his faith about a year previously and had been deluding himself (including by posting on web-fora with ever more hard-line and rigid religious statements) all that time. He said that it had been "reinforced" by what he'd been reading here, but the fact remained that the loss of faith was a falling-away-of-itself in nature. He just couldn't square it with himself anymore.

You can't "cure" someone - they have to do it themselves. Rationality is an inside job.

[portugal11]

Because they aren't content to just be happy with their religion - they attempt to impose unjust laws upon the rest of us, or discretionary use of authority against us, founded on the legitimacy of their false beliefs.

thats a shame, no one ever tried to convert me or impose some unjust law upon me, maybe thats just because i live in canada though

[Ummon]

Because they aren't content to just be happy with their religion - they attempt to impose unjust laws upon the rest of us, or discretionary use of authority against us, founded on the legitimacy of their false beliefs.

False? I have yet to see any clue that it is so (or the opposite, either).

Strange, how everytime a proposition is undecideable there is someone who "knows" the correct answer...

In any case, perfect description of the theme of this thread as well.

[Cluny the Scourge]

False? I have yet to see any clue that it is so (or the opposite, either).

If no "clue" can be shown that something is true, then you do not consider it to be true until it is so shown. That is elementary reason. Therefore if someone says, to pick a random religious statement, "Jesus is Risen!" then they are speaking falsehood.

[Ummon]

If no "clue" can be shown that something is true, then you do not consider it to be true until it is so shown. That is elementary reason. Therefore if someone says, to pick a random religious statement, "Jesus is Risen!" then they are speaking falsehood.

Actually, I have seen no clue that it is true or false, but I have seen a lot of clues that many believe one or the other. If I leave any undecideable question outside my behaviour, you will quickly see me become Buridan's ass.

By trying to obtain digital precision in human everyday logics, you have already failed the task of understanding the world.

Jesus is Risen, for reasons beyond your understanding. This doesn't mean these reasons are true, since they are subjective, but I can decide based on them, given that all alternatives are equally unproven.

I was not restricting the field of thought to religion. There are lots of areas, for example sexual preference, where this can easily go.

I suppose in a small world what you are proposing works. But in society at large we don't have the luxury to decide whether the policeman giving us a ticket really deserves to have the authority to do so; it's his job and if he abuses his authority we all hope he doesn't get away with it for too long.

Quite the opposite: you make such decisions every moment. Your freedom is just as unescapable as it is fragile and unconscious.

Most of the times infact, enemies of religion are enemies of human nature and freedom. Anti-humanists without knowing it.

[AqD]

if being religious makes them happy, why not let them be

Because their thoughts will ultimately conflict with human evolution?

1) All religions tell people what is right and what is wrong without reasoning. We do not need those rules or guides. We should do whatever is beneficial to us.

2) Religions tell people to submit and to follow - the same attitude that created so many tyrants, kings, and emperors in human history. People should be taught to learn and challenge those who appear superior, rather than to admit that they're born suckers and to submit.
________
Lyiza

[boofhead]

1) All religions tell people what is right and what is wrong without reasoning.

LOL. I am Christian and I have no deficiency in my powers of reason. I'm no genius, but I was way above average in high school, and I'm no dunce yet.

We do not need those rules or guides. We should do whatever is beneficial to us

Heh heh heh that is an error that has been made since time began. We all need people. We wouldn't be alive if it weren't for people. If you try to throw everything humanity ever learnt away right now, you would suffer, and so would your kids.

Have you ever read the Book of Proverbs? Even though they don't recognize it, most atheists these days recognise the wisdom and institute it in their own lives. They didn't think of it themselves, but they would have you think it all came down to their own logic.

2) Religions tell people to submit and to follow - the same attitude that created so many tyrants, kings, and emperors in human history. People should be taught to learn and challenge those who appear superior, rather than to admit that they're born suckers and to submit.

Mine doesn't tell me to submit and follow. I use my God-given talents to their utmost. I think, I question, I fight, I love, I sulk........I make no apologies.

[HopliteElite]

Religions, especially the ones that focus on the existence of God, are definitely relatable to mental disorder. Let's break it down. If a man believes he has an invisible friend that lives in his closet, he needs help, but if a man believes he has an invisible friend in the sky, he deserves respect for his faith? It is rediculous and only backed up by the fact that the God delusion has existed for such a long time that this particular form of mental illness is accepted and relished. We need to treat religion like the socially induced mental disease that it is and eradicate it. A society of mentally ill people is not a good society.

[boofhead]

Religions, especially the ones that focus on the existence of God, are definitely relatable to mental disorder. Let's break it down. If a man believes he has an invisible friend that lives in his closet, he needs help, but if a man believes he has an invisible friend in the sky, he deserves respect for his faith? It is rediculous and only backed up by the fact that the God delusion has existed for such a long time that this particular form of mental illness is accepted and relished. We need to treat religion like the socially induced mental disease that it is and eradicate it. A society of mentally ill people is not a good society.

You are basically stating that 99% of people who ever lived were or are mad. That's a bit rude, don't you think? And do you think you are so awesomely excellent that you are among the small minority who are not mad? LOL, we all know who determines whether someone is mad or not, don't we? The label makers, the judgemental ones, those who would apply labels are the mad ones, because they somehow choose to deny their own mortaility in their own minds, therefore they would judge and take it upon themselves to act like God. Some closed society of psychiatrists who have always lived in luxury know a lot less than the pauper who has had to fight all his life.

Cheer up. You've only got one life, and believers are not only here to stay - they make up the vast majority. So get over it.