The Evolution of Spiritual Being

**Ragabash** · July 14, 2008, 01:59 PM

I have always thought human as a spiritual being, able to think outside "the box" and meet/ponder unknown or totally unexistant conspets to us, or even for the whole universe outside. Still, I'm as much atheist as one can be. I do not however deny our spiritual nature but what produces this phenemona. I do not see it stemming from any external source, outside our perception and as universal truth. Either that consept be the one of agnostic or theist.

Now, the question is, how much can we trace the raise of practiced religious movements to how our mind and we as a spiritual beings have evolved as a biological and social creatures.

I would make a rather strong argument that the more we look into our socities, the more it has become clear, that practiced religious habits has not been produced by external source but by our own spiritual state of mind, from the day we born.

Such as our minds are capable of thinking outside "the box" and invent amazing inventions such as producing fire, the wheel, spear, computer et cetra, so is our mind capable of producing spiritual thoughts.

Those inviduals, and even more important groups of people who are best forming new inventions, not just practical but spiritual have been far more successfull in terms of evolution. It's only natural for us to create "laws" for this spiritual phenemona that was visible from simple family groups to early tribes and groups of people.

Why there was a need for these "laws" in the first place? I like to see the answer quite simple, we as a specie are social creatures, we live in a social environment where some sort of behaviour codes are essential.

Lions have these codes, ants, and all social creatures but as our brains are far more complex (not that we necessary need outright brain activity to form these rules in terms of biology but that is not what this is about) so are our social rules. These rules have evolved for all groups in the world for very same reason, to keep the "pack" as I like to call it together and strong enough to face challenges of the social environment.

Now, just as a side note, what prevents animals for creating spiritual consepts in their invidual mind and reflecting them to their own "societies"? Granted, they must be much simpler but some these behaviour codes could be very well originated from same source as I would claim our own "social laws".

But this comes even more interesting when we ponder evolutionary state of something that is not purely biological. It's not anymore biological evolution that guarantees success of a group or invidual, it's external evolution, the evolution of ideologies, spiritual matters (religion, philosophy et cetra) and collective mind (culture).

I will post more on this as soon as I'm given some feedback or ideas. Either that is against what I just said, or going deeper in the subject I welcome all the information you can provide me, as long as it's constructive and not biased with religious agenda or of a sort (no biblical quotes et cetra).

And please bear with my poor English. Try to read between the lines where I have not managed to explain something as detailed as I would had liked.

**Chaigidel** · July 14, 2008, 02:43 PM

Good insight by my estimation; if it is happening there is no doubt an organic process being carried out-- I feel certain that the part of the brain that deals with abstraction must also be the influence on our spirituality.

**Ragabash** · July 14, 2008, 03:16 PM

But even when we assume (there is evidence that our brain activity can be linked to certain spiritual states of mind but I do not want to make this thread solely about biological matters) that spiritualism is a biological matter, it becomes quite fascinating when we realize that it's no longer biological evolution but ideological that guarantees success of a certain group.

**Chaigidel** · July 14, 2008, 04:19 PM

annother good point but dont you think the biological programming has the most to do with that ideal success?

**Ragabash** · July 14, 2008, 04:41 PM

Yes, I do. But while this "phenemona" is a result of biological programming it does not control external products that it creates. And it's these external productions that have become essential to survive in the environment we have created for ourselves.

Our mere "biological behaviour codes" are no longer the only ones that determine our success in the enviroment presented to us.

**Chaigidel** · July 14, 2008, 04:51 PM

so where do you think this comes from? is it abstraction, cognition etc ?

well obviously the whole aspect of our memory and interexchange of ideas is what blends together to construct the overall "feeling" or atmosphere; but do you think anything other than chemistry is at work there?

I mean when does something cease being programmed and start independent thought; and then can the thought be said to be actually independent of the parts? ---

I hope im staying on subject !

and one more thing when something is so bound up in both the physical exchanges and the energetic exchanges can the organic truly be said to be seperate from the greater physical reality since all of its carbon was forged in stars the same as others; I agree mostly that spirituality and our minds as a whole most definitely are bound up in these base chemical exchanges, and energetic exchanges--- I think that some sort of information exchange occurs with the organic and the external source as you put it

**Ragabash** · July 14, 2008, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

so where do you think this comes from? is it abstraction, cognition etc ?

I think that ultimatelly there is just one source for this phenemona, it all stems from biological matter, our brains.

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

well obviously the whole aspect of our memory and interexchange of ideas is what blends together to construct the overall "feeling" or atmosphere; but do you think anything other than chemistry is at work there?

I mean when does something cease being programmed and start independent thought; and then can the thought be said to be actually independent of the parts? ---

Well, this is the "hard part". Since "thoughts" are a result of brain activity, they must be linked to biological attributes. It's clear that "thoughts" are very complex biological patterns (not just for humans) but there is nothing really to suggest they are independent from the parts. In fact, once we die, our thoughts die as well, so they cannot be independent from "the machine".

However, since thoughts and again their products can evolve outside the biological evolution, what are they?

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

I hope im staying on subject !

You are, and if you are not, I won't stop you from posting as I'm quite interested anything related. Keep it coming!

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

and one more thing when something is so bound up in both the physical exchanges and the energetic exchanges can the organic truly be said to be seperate from the greater physical reality since all of its carbon was forged in stars the same as others; I agree mostly that spirituality and our minds as a whole most definitely are bound up in these base chemical exchanges, and energetic exchanges--- I think that some sort of information exchange occurs with the organic and the external source as you put it

Yes, I think this too. These external sources must be linked to a biological sources somehow. And this source of course gives us certain tools to work with. But we must also understand that these external products are not the ones that biological evolution can direct, it has its own affect granted, but to assume that it's solely based on biological evolution sounds very unlikely.

And since these external products are the ones that are essential in order for a certain group to surive in the environment we have created for us, we must assume that there occurs evolution, not only in biological aspects, but ideological and as a collective gathering as well.

**Chaigidel** · July 14, 2008, 06:29 PM

yes but with our technology we are moving and have moved in many respects into a world that is under our manipulation; and our ideas are made material --- like the controlled fission reaction of the nuke or the genetic engineering of making things glow in the dark--- I feel our ideas are genuinely entering the process of full on physical evolution.

through this process of interaction; storage; refinement; etc that no doubt any self aware being would commit too on some level most of all social animals.

then the question becomes are we pretty much garaunteed that only social animals could ever attain the evolutionary apex we have through the external evolution of ideas of a people ;

blah my sentences so confused but let me summarize

ideas are becoming part of the physical evolution rather than a passive influence on the evolution.

**~~Ummon~~** · July 14, 2008, 10:12 PM

It is by all means not our ideas. We are theirs, infact.

There are many pieces of interesting thought, for non-professionals of the field, in this thread. The part which deals in abstraction is certainly involved with religion. The problem is that is no part at all.