Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name dispute.

[Giorgos]

Not this thread again...

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Why someone who origins from central Asia,not neighboring with Greece has such a hate for Greece and Greeks

Grow up kiddo..

The majority of the Turks in this forum are open minded and friendly,

your opinion counts nothing cause it's based on your Anti-Greek feelings

So everything that is wrong with greece is sudden turned on the poster for being Anti-Greek? Well I can see why the Turks tend to dislike Greeks then.

[The Noble Lord]

The region Macedonia historically and geographically was inhabited by Greeks and at the 6th century slavic population had crossed Danube and settle in Balkans.
During the years of Byzantine and Ottoman rule there were identified two nationalities Macedonian Greeks and Bulgars.(all the European Travelers had pointed that out in their traveler's lodge)

Correct. Its 100% correct.
But the problem is that Yugoslav Macedonians don't wanna accept that. I think the reason is because the territory of today's Macedonia was almost always under somebody else's rule.
I mean, in the middle ages the capital of the Serbian empire of Tsar Dushan the Mighty was Skopje. Then, up until the late 1400s the territory of todays Macedonia was ruled by noble Serbian families like Mrnjavcevic and Kraljevic. And it was the Serbian army that liberated Skopje from the Turks in 1912 during the first Balkan War.
So in order to compensate for these historical facts, the Macedonian nationalists are claiming that FYR of Macedonia is rightful heir to the classical Macedonian empire.
Who wouldn't wanna be associated with the glories of Philip and Alexander the Great.
It would be like Turkish nationalists claiming that Turks are indigenous population of Anatolia. And we all know that before 1071 there was none of them there.
Those are the facts of history that have been proven time and time again.

FYR of Macedonia and Greece would have to come to some sort of understanding. For the sake of the future and prosperity.


CHEERS

[paraskevikaidekatris]

The Greek side has done its part in negotiations and has been waiting for the Skopjans to stop being isolate. Greece was ready to accept names such as Northern Macedonia, while its first target was to avoid any name using the term Macedonia. It's now time for the Skopjan side to stop insulting our national symbols (i.e. flags and history of Greece) and accept a solution that is reasonable. I don't see the reason why a name that contains geographical specifying terms.
Greece has run half the road in the negotiations, now the Skopjans must come to an agreement

[Orretje]

I think it isn't very hard to understand why Greeks value the name Macedonia as being something exclusively Greek. Ever since the Turks came from Central Asia the Greeks have been losing their traditional native lands to alien invaders. History is full of ethnic shifts, but the Greek case is special in some ways, they had to cope with Asiatic incursions from the East and at the same time from Slavic incursions from the North during the Middle Ages. The Greeks already lost their homelands in Western Anatolia, they aren't waiting for another loss of territory in the North.

Like some people already implicated: If FYROM gets the name Macedonia, it can reasonably claim the Greek part of Macedonia and claim it for the "Macedonian" people. Depending on the balance of forces and world opinion, Greece then might have to surrender their province at some point in time (or not of course). It's the same as the Kosovo case, up to a few hundred years ago it was predominantly Serbian, now Albanians have been settling there for years and decide to take over. For all sorts of reasons, most Western nations supported independence for Kosovo and there you have it.

I'd support the Greeks in their fears, but then what kind of identity can the FYROM people take? Solve that and you solve it all.

[AnthoniusII]

I'd support the Greeks in their fears, but then what kind of identity can the FYROM people take? Solve that and you solve it all.

Ochrydian bulgars(but those people that use bulgarian languege and marks)do not want a bulgarian supervisor!
Pellagonians(but they do not want to leave the Alexander's heritege)
Paionians(but they would accept a greek heritege and not a bulgarian one)!
Skopjians(like americans)...a new ethnisity that could cover all the minor ethnicities in the area!!!
The sullotion is hard to be found becouse they(the people of skopjie)do not know what they must accept(internationall publishings of historical books are forbiten in that country and only their publishings are allowed)!
History by their constitution is a matter of the state not the citizens...
They are trying to control the knowlege...but...how the knowlege can be stoped?:hmmm:

[neoptolemos]

So everything that is wrong with greece is sudden turned on the poster for being Anti-Greek? Well I can see why the Turks tend to dislike Greeks then.

Common i have read previous post of yours

Don't play the role of an "objective" poster

The Noble Lord
Quote:
The region Macedonia historically and geographically was inhabited by Greeks and at the 6th century slavic population had crossed Danube and settle in Balkans.
During the years of Byzantine and Ottoman rule there were identified two nationalities Macedonian Greeks and Bulgars.(all the European Travelers had pointed that out in their traveler's lodge)



Correct. Its 100% correct.
But the problem is that Yugoslav Macedonians don't wanna accept that. I think the reason is because the territory of today's Macedonia was almost always under somebody else's rule.
I mean, in the middle ages the capital of the Serbian empire of Tsar Dushan the Mighty was Skopje. Then, up until the late 1400s the territory of todays Macedonia was ruled by noble Serbian families like Mrnjavcevic and Kraljevic. And it was the Serbian army that liberated Skopje from the Turks in 1912 during the first Balkan War.
So in order to compensate for these historical facts, the Macedonian nationalists are claiming that FYR of Macedonia is rightful heir to the classical Macedonian empire.
Who wouldn't wanna be associated with the glories of Philip and Alexander the Great.
It would be like Turkish nationalists claiming that Turks are indigenous population of Anatolia. And we all know that before 1071 there was none of them there.
Those are the facts of history that have been proven time and time again.

Exactly that's my point.
FYROM people ought to be proud being Slavs and having Slavic origin and tradition as any other Slavic nation

The "constructed" history and false nationalistic propaganda of their state is what i criticize

FYR of Macedonia and Greece would have to come to some sort of understanding. For the sake of the future and prosperity.

I think both Greek and Skopjians hope this dispute will end

The nationalistic governement and prime minister Gruefsky are not so cooperative though,the contrary i can say:hmmm:

AnthoniusII
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orretje
I'd support the Greeks in their fears, but then what kind of identity can the FYROM people take? Solve that and you solve it all.

Ochrydian bulgars(but those people that use bulgarian languege and marks)do not want a bulgarian supervisor!
Pellagonians(but they do not want to leave the Alexander's heritege)
Paionians(but they would accept a greek heritege and not a bulgarian one)!
Skopjians(like americans)...a new ethnisity that could cover all the minor ethnicities in the area!!!
The sullotion is hard to be found becouse they(the people of skopjie)do not know what they must accept(internationall publishings of historical books are forbiten in that country and only their publishings are allowed)!
History by their constitution is a matter of the state not the citizens...
They are trying to control the knowlege...but...how the knowlege can be stoped?:hmmm:

Excellent post
Their tradition and civilization is Slavic,Macedonia is Greek,all they had to do is to see the facts and their language,tradition and stop dream of "Great Macedonia"

If the name issue will be solved i strongly believe that Greece will cooperate and support FYROM entering both NATO and EU

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Here's a deal. I'll support the Greeks and thier nonsense with Macedonia if they give up all their dreams for getting back Istanbul.

[Giorgos]

Done. Now act on your support. Start by giving a bad name to Gruevski and his cronies for pushing their nationalistic bull around.

[neoptolemos]

Here's a deal. I'll support the Greeks and thier nonsense with Macedonia if they give up all their dreams for getting back Istanbul.

I really can not understand why you make these generalizations:hmmm:

Greek=nationalist with the dream of conquering Turkish territories?
Is that your opinion about Greeks?

Greek foreign policy has nothing to do with claiming lands or support aggressive stance against none.

Please inform and educate yourself about Greece and Greeks and then make any statement.

You are not a Turk(from the state of Turkey i mean) but of Turkic origin people,Right?

What about if a non-Turkic country wanted to named after a Turkic region,claiming your people history as theirs,claiming your people's territories as theirs:hmmm:

Would has been this a "onsense" for you and your region?

[Dracula]

The current "macedonians" are bulgarians. At least this is what their language implies to. I say Greece and Bulgaria make a treaty and divide the bloody place between them and that'll finish the case. But the current nationalistic government in Macedonia that lays on no roots is unbearable.

[Aru]

The current "macedonians" are bulgarians. At least this is what their language implies to.

Whar if it's the other way around? Bulgarians are actually Macedonians, they just don't know it?:hmmm:

[Dracula]

Whar if it's the other way around? Bulgarians are actually Macedonians, they just don't know it?:hmmm:

Bulgaria is much bigger,so a county should refer to the whole,not the other way round.

[neoptolemos]

Whar if it's the other way around? Bulgarians are actually Macedonians, they just don't know it?:hmmm:

That's a good one

The names of the Macedonian months Apellaios, Artemisios and Panemos are the same months as those in the Spartan calendar. Moreover, the months Artemisios and Panemos are also found in the Argive calendar.

So in summary:

· The Macedonian month Apellaios is also a Spartan and Argive month.
· The Macedonian month Panemos is also a Corinthian and Epidaurian month. It is also a Spartan and Argive month.
· The Macedonian month Hyperberetaios is also a Cretan month.
· The Macedonian month Artemisios is also a Spartan, Rhodian and Epidaurian month.

(see: http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient...ndar?method=22 and http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Measurements2.htm )

We know that Spartans, Corinthians, Cretans, Epidaurians, Rhodians and Argives are of Dorian stock.

Therefore, apart from the month Loios which is also a Thessalian (Aeolic) month, the Macedonian months are unique except for the four months mentioned above which are also found in the calendars of other Doric peoples.

So how do we explain that the names of three Macedonian months are the same as the three Spartan ones?

Sparta lies at the head of the Peloponnese, far away from Macedonia, in southern Greece. Ancient Macedonians and Spartans had no contacts but nevertheless they both shared three month's names. How come?

Both Macedonians and Spartans are, as stated by Herodotus, of Dorian origin. Not only were Macedonia and Sparta both kingdoms and warlike people but they had the same Dorian origin.

Moreover there are also Macedonian months whose names are shared with the calendars of Argos, Corinth, Epidaurus, Crete and Rhodes. Argives, Corinthians, Cretans, Epidaurians and Rhodians are once again of Dorian stock.

The link? A common ancestry amongst these Dorian peoples.

[Aru]

Bulgaria is much bigger,so a county should refer to the whole,not the other way round.

Why? So is most of North America, yet they speak English. Not to mention South America and Spanish and biggest case of Portugal and Brasil. And why wouldn't two neighboring nations speak very similar languages? Who are you to say they aren't Macedonians?

[Dracula]

Why? So is most of North America, yet they speak English. Not to mention South America and Spanish and biggest case of Portugal and Brasil. And why wouldn't two neighboring nations speak very similar languages? Who are you to say they aren't Macedonians?

Your examples just prove they have stemmed from the same tree.

[Sphere]

Macedonia is the geographical region, has been called that for decades. It doesn't matter what people inhabit it.

As an American, the Greek arguments hold no weight. We have North Dakota (Dakota Sioux Tribe), New Mexico (Mexicans), Illinois( Illini Tribe), Utah (Ute tribe) are all now filled with white people. Naming the place after the people you kick out is an American past-time.

[Aru]

Your examples just prove they have stemmed from the same tree.

Tree has branches, you know.

[Dracula]

Macedonia is the geographical region, has been called that for decades. It doesn't matter what people inhabit it.

As an American, the Greek arguments hold no weight. We have North Dakota (Dakota Sioux Tribe), New Mexico (Mexicans), Illinois( Illini Tribe), Utah (Ute tribe) are all now filled with white people. Naming the place after the people you kick out is an American past-time.

The greeks don't say that it is now inhabited by greeks or their decendants -but that exactly the place is NOT the historical region of Macedonia,though the macedonian kings owned it ones. The historical region of Macedonia is Northern Greece,and they have a county with this name there for ages. I think it's the place where there are also the tombs of the macedonian kings,Philip and after him. The independent "Macedonia" stood at the end of the Philip's kingdom then.

Correct me if it is not so ,Neoptolemos.

[paraskevikaidekatris]

The current "macedonians" are bulgarians. At least this is what their language implies to. I say Greece and Bulgaria make a treaty and divide the bloody place between them and that'll finish the case. But the current nationalistic government in Macedonia that lays on no roots is unbearable.

I am a Macedonian and I consider myself GREEK.
My mother and father are Macedonians and consider themselves GREEK.
75% of the inhabitants of my town are Macedonians and they consider themselves GREEK ( the rest 25% are Albanians, Bulgarians or Greeks descending from Pontus, Constantinople and Asia Minor).
As for the language you mention I can't understand what you are telling us about. All the people I told you before are Macedonians and speak Greek. As far as I know the Greek language uses a modified version of the phoenician alphabet. The bulgarian language uses the alphabet invented by Kyrillos, a greek monk. I know that there is no similarities between the two languages. How can you say that Macedonians speak a language similar to the Bulgarian one?
The traty you propose is really unnecessary, as there have been many such treaties, that are now respected by both countries. The treaties are those of the Versailles, Lausanne, London and Sevres.