Law and Order in the UK

[Kleos]

11th July 2008:

A "sexual predator" who had warned there was a "nine out of ten chance" he would strike again has been jailed for 20 years for raping a woman just one week after being released from prison…

He was first convicted or rape in 1979 ….
In May 1993 he was convicted of unlawful sex …
He was released in late 1995 but in March 1996 he attacked and raped a 22-year-old …
In 2005 he was automatically released on licence after serving two thirds of his sentence…
On the 21 August, 2006 Harrison invited a prostitute and mother-of-three to the basement of a derelict pub where he cut off her underwear, raped her and left her for dead.

13th July 2008

More than 20,000 serious knife crimes were committed last year - They show that almost 60 people are stabbed or mugged at knife-point every day.

Six people died in knife attacks in a 24-hour period last week, leading to an unprecedented statement from Scotland Yard aimed at reassuring the public.
Among the victims was Melvin Bryan, an 18-year-old who became the 42nd teenager killed in Britain this year and the 20th in London.

And so the social rot in Britain continues…crime rates rising, criminal “justice” a joke…

At least we’re not as bad as the USA, right?
Guns, high unemployment, greater inequality in wealth – violent crime is worse across the pond….right?

Errmmm…well, actually - no. The USA has a lower violent crime rate the UK, a lot lower.

As the Home Office-produced (p.12, table 7a) table below shows; England and Wales has a rate of 23 violent crimes per 1000, so 2,300 per 100,000


(measured from September 05 - September 06; NOT two years)

While the United States has a violent crime rate of just 469.2 per 100,000

A lot has changed in Britain since this was written, that’s for sure:
(taken from Instructions for American Servicemen in Britain, 1942 )

“The Briton is just as outspoken and independent as we are. But don’t get him wrong. He is also the most law-abiding citizen in the word, because the British system of justice is just about the best there is. There are fewer murders, robberies, and burglaries in the whole of Great Britain in a year than in a single large American city”

In fact the USA could teach us a few lessons. Take elected Sheriffs for example.

I recently read about Sheriff Joe Arpaio and was instantly impressed by his hard line approach to criminals:

• Reduced meals to twice a day, using surplus food to minimise costs
• Banned smoking, pornographic magazines, weightlifting equipment
• Cable (necessary by court order) channels were greatly reduced
• Mandatory English classes for non-English speakers
• Creation of a "tent city" to deal with overcrowding which saved millions of dollars worth of taxpayers money - as well as removing the pressure to release convicts early
• Six-day a weak chain gangs introduced, further saving taxpayers money by using convict labour for such tasks as burying indigent persons and creating fire breaks.

He does not ignore the rehabilitation aspect of the prison system either, and certainly has not forgotten the importance of prevention - with many community based schemes being expanded under his time on office.

Now some Americans may wonder why this merits particular attention - but on this side of the Atlantic things are different. Very different.
Some of our prisons have problems with people trying to break in, uncontrolled drug problems (“Drugs are coming in at a rate that's so dramatic that [they] are actually cheaper than on the outside.” – Prisoner Officer Association, assistant general secretary), tens of thousands declining to pursue the chance of early release; and in the words of previously mentioned POA member:

"Prisoners receive a wage for being in prison, they receive a bed, a TV in all cells, Sky television in most areas for recreational use, free telephones, breakfast in bed on many occasions, cash bonuses for good behaviour...And prison staff are forced to deal with them in such a subservient way. It's ridiculous."

A similar sheriff system to what the USA possesses would be a great move towards tackling crime, decentralizing central government involvement, maximizing community participation, decreasing cost (up to £49,000 a year) and delivering accountability into our criminal justice system.

There have been calls in the recent past for such schemes, the Conservative made a show of support several years ago, and under David Cameron have called for a similar idea.

*

Perhaps another example from the USA that we would be wise to adopt in Britain is the death penalty. The Labour-dominated House of Commons voted to end the death penalty for murder in 1969; the death penalty having been temporarily suspended in 1965 for an experimental five years.

Since then, the number of murders have continued to rise, the below Home Office graph (p.48, Homicide) makes for uncomfortable viewing:
(Red and blue crosses added by me)



Note the vertical red line, indicating 1965 when the death penalty was ‘experimentally’ abolished. The murder rate was basically the same as ten years previously –just under in fact.

But from this abolition of the death penalty note the sudden initial rise, and then the overall rising trend that continues over time. By the millennium the amount of murders has more than doubled since the abolition of the death penalty.

Of course correlation does not necessarily mean causation.
But since the death penalty our population has increased by just over 10% from 54 million, we have got richer as a nation and in terms of GDP per capita. The two most likely causes one would point to – population growth and poverty – cannot be blamed here. I’m not saying the removal of the death penalty was behind all of this increase, but the figures do correlate rather too close for comfort…

And for those wondering, the blue cross is to draw attention to the highest murder rate seen under Thatcher. Notice that it is in line with the historical trends since the abolition of the death penalty, and is a hundred or so murders less that what we are experiencing today. I included it because it seems some are blaming a rise in violent crime today on Thatcher. (Red Ken and this idiot, for instance)

I'm sure they think New Labour has done a fantastic job...

"As Leader of the Opposition, Tony Blair ("tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime") succeeded in watering down the previous Conservative government's proposals in the Crime Sentencing Act 1997 for a mandatory three-year prison sentence for home burglary (one of the most dangerous crimes, and one often extremely traumatic for the victims), so that, in the seven years after the act came into force, fewer than 15 of the hundreds convicted of burglary for a third time had been given the allegedly mandatory three-year sentence."


"Separate figures obtained by the Tories' shadow police reform minister David Ruffley showed that there had been a 21 per cent increase in the numbers of homicides in the past decade, from 609 in 1997 to 734 in 2006/07."


"While ministers like to boast of a "40 per cent reduction in violent crime" - Jack Straw, now Minister for Justice, made that claim last week - the Home Office's figures tell a different story.
Over the past 10 years violent crime has doubled, up from 60,000 offences in 1998-99 to more than 120,000 in 2005-2006.
There are 15,000 more offences of "violent disorder" each year than there were a decade ago; 10,000 more offences involving possession of weapons were recorded in 2006 than in 1998. Assault is up, as is robbery. The only crime that has gone down significantly is burglary."


Immigration to Canada, New Zealand, Australia or the US is looking mroe and more appealing...at least I'm not the only one

[dwringer]

Wow, I, as an American, find this to be pretty interesting. Here we tend to hear of Britain as an example of low violence as well, generally in tandem with gun control arguments. That's a can of worms that shouldn't be opened on this thread, but I am stunned by such a huge disparity in violent crime stats as what you present.

[roy34543]

Wow it sounds like its a good time to be a prisoner in britian. really prison should be a cell that you can barely fit in..It should be torture not ...Hotel-like. Are your politicians afraid they will end up in jail?

[Joker85]

In the US we have a few states that are... let's just call it progressive when it comes to crime that are as bad as the UK. I know recently there has been some controversy over a handful of states refusing to pass Jessica's law (mandatory 20 year to life sentences for child rapists, named after an 8 year old raped and buried alive by a repeat pedophile).

Overall I definitely do see where you are coming from. Criminals have rights to be sure, but one of them is not the ability to live in comfort and happiness while they serve their sentences. A small cell, books to read, and a couple meals a day is all they should get in my opinion. Anything else is a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Edit: I do also support certain educational and career training options available so they are able to make a living once they are released.

[dwringer]

In the US our main problem with mandatory minimum sentencing (as well as capital punishment) is that our supreme, infallible justice system is sometimes anything but.

[Oglethorpe1983]

I was very happy when I read this thread... not becuase of the high violent crime rate in the UK, thats unfortunate. What made me happy is to see that there are others who are qually frustrated with thier governments lax approach to criminals.

As an American I find it frustrating almost sickening to read day in and day out about heinous crimes that occur in our country. The most depressing are the ones connected with repeat offenders.


One of the most brutal was recently a coed at Colombia University was tortured and raped in an unimagimable way. I had originally included a link to an article but I decided against it as it is just sickening the horrors that this women was subjected to and if youre not aware of it...be happy with your ignorance.... The person if he can he called that was a life time criminal recently released from prison for attempted murder...so I guess he wanted to try again....

As I was writing this post I came across another article on the Wichita Massacre something that I hadnt heard about...becuase it wasnt reported on outside of the city....

The more I hear, the more I feel its a hopeless situation, especially with the liberal justice system we have in this country (and in many Western nations as well) I am completely serious when I say this...this country needs to go back to the times of the Vigilance Committee of San Fransico... (a time when private citizens circumventred the law and more importantly the courts and dealt with criminals directly.

To all those reading this...I am not an "American Cowboy", nor am I a rednick, or any other degrogitory term you might want to throw at me, I am simply a person, who believes that violent criminals are like a cancer on decent society, and need to be dealt with, not coddled, not released on technicalties, or becuase of good behavior. There is no rehabilitation (and dont give me the leopold and lobe arguement...)Why should we as decent tax paying citizens pay to give heartless criminals more luxury then many other people have.... I (even as a Catholic) have absolutely no qualms about the death penalty and feel it should be used much more freely....

[Erik]

The more I hear, the more I feel its a hopeless situation

Don't pay too much attention to the media, then.

Just looks at the facts, contrary to the media they draw an optimistic picture for your country:


As for UK vs US:

[Roman Rapper]

I was very happy when I read this thread... not becuase of the high violent crime rate in the UK, thats unfortunate. What made me happy is to see that there are others who are qually frustrated with thier governments lax approach to criminals.

Good gracious, did you read my post?

You think your government is being lax on crime? The U.S government is already the biggest jailer on the planet.

So, in your opinion, how many Americans, how may of your fellow U.S citizens, should your government be putting in prison? 5 million? 10 million? 15? tell me when to stop.

What if you were one of them. Think about that.

[Romano-Dacis]

So, in your opinion, how many Americans, how may of your fellow U.S citizens, should your government be putting in prison? 5 million? 10 million? 15? tell me when to stop.

What if you were one of them. Think about that.

The thing isn't about the number of people incarcerated, but the severity of the punishment. A prison isn't supposed to be low-cost housing.

[NaptownKnight]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread, but maybe the reason there are so many more violent crimes in the UK is because people don't have guns to protect themselves with.

[Joker85]

Don't worry their "knife culture" will soon be taken care of. Anything sharper than a butter knife will be banned and they can eat steak with their hands while celebrating their liberation from gun violence.

[Shaun]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread, but maybe the reason there are so many more violent crimes in the UK is because people don't have guns to protect themselves with.

Absolutely not. Even when the average person could quite easily own a gun, violent crime was higher then than it was now. In fact, when current gun legislation came into force, less than 1% of British citizens had to turn in weapons. There never was a gun culture here in the UK. We want freedom from such weapons, not freedom to own them. And, largely, we do have freedom from fear of guns.

Don't worry their "knife culture" will soon be taken care of. Anything sharper than a butter knife will be banned and they can eat steak with their hands while celebrating their liberation from gun violence.

Sensationalist nonsense.

[LoZz]

Well, I don't want to turn this into a gun thread, but maybe the reason there are so many more violent crimes in the UK is because people don't have guns to protect themselves with.

people in the uk who carry knifes do so becuase other people carry knifes. its a cycle. the more people who use them, the more people feel they have to have one as well "just in case."

you introduce guns into this problem, then all those knifes will just turn into the guns and will make the situation 10x harder to combat.

well plently of inocent victims have been stabbed allready. most quite frankly are part of the same scum bag gangs who go around stabbing people anyway.


violent crime is but one aspect of crime. while violent crime is going up (at a faster rate then they say tbh) overall crime is still down just like it is in most western nations.

but a very good, well made post. excelent work kleos

[Roman Rapper]

Kleos is spewing right-wing propaganda, nothing more.

Lol, yes, I suppose you would like us to be more like the U.S, wouldn't you Kleos? That way the people you happen to disagree with have a higher chance of being locked up.

Fact: The number of U.S citizens in the prison system in the U.S has more than doubled since 1989. But I'm sure Kleos fully supports that, no doubt he believes that people are simply twice as likely to commit crime as 19 years ago, and need to be punished accordingly.


The rest of us, those of us who are not prepared to sit back and accept the U.K turning into a police state, we know that the U.S has, since 1989, simply chosen to criminalize twice as many people.

What Kleos doesn't tell us is that most of the new prisons in America which have been built to house these minor drug offenders were built by and are owned by private businesses.
The owners of these business lobby the politicians to make sure they criminalize more and more of their own people, the people they were elected to serve.
Full prisons, and with it a license to print money in the form of legal slave labour from the inmates, means big big profits for the rich guys!What a great system!

I think I prefer the way we do it in Britain, and any sane person will agree with me. After all, you never know when it's going to be you they try to lock away, 2-9 for a petty crime.

[dwringer]

Hah, it's frighteningly true that the US is simply criminalizing more people. Here I know a LOT of people who've been arrested, though only the really unlucky ones end up in jail. Still, they FREQUENTLY don't deserve what happens to them, IMO. 3-5 is the time the get stuck with here, most often

[removeduser_487563287433]

My post is going to be a bit less Daily Mail reactionary than Kleos', and actually use a source, but I suppose you're just going to have to live with that. In summary the poor chap is being a bit sensationalist.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdf...me0607summ.pdf

That's the most up-to-date source for crime statistics in England and Wales, using both the police data and the British Crime Survey.

Ultimately around about a fifth of crime in England and Wales is violent crime, however, if you actually take the time to see what this means you are soon told that "almost half of violent crimes involve no injury and only a small proportion involve serious offences."

The report goes on to say that violent crime has not fallen in the past year, but has fallen 41% since the mid-1990s with half a million fewer victims a year. Violence against the person fell 1% the last year, the first fall in eight years, and there was a 9% fall in the most serious violence against the person.

Sorry to ruin the thread so early.

[Heinz Guderian]

My post is going to be a bit less Daily Mail reactionary than Kleos', and actually use a source, but I suppose you're just going to have to live with that. In summary the poor chap is being a bit sensationalist.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdf...me0607summ.pdf

That's the most up-to-date source for crime statistics in England and Wales, using both the police data and the British Crime Survey.

Ultimately around about a fifth of crime in England and Wales is violent crime, however, if you actually take the time to see what this means you are soon told that "almost half of violent crimes involve no injury and only a small proportion involve serious offences."

The report goes on to say that violent crime has not fallen in the past year, but has fallen 41% since the mid-1990s with half a million fewer victims a year. Violence against the person fell 1% the last year, the first fall in eight years, and there was a 9% fall in the most serious violence against the person.

Sorry to ruin the thread so early.

Well said. rep+.

@Kleos: what political party do you support if you dont mind me asking? Cos i swear i've read this kind of thing in leaflets posted through my door.

[Kleos]

My post is going to be a bit less Daily Mail reactionary than Kleos'

Not one Daily Mail source was used...

, and actually use a source,

I used two Home Office sources...

The report goes on to say that violent crime has not fallen in the past year, but has fallen 41% since the mid-1990s with half a million fewer victims a year. Violence against the person fell 1% the last year, the first fall in eight years, and there was a 9% fall in the most serious violence against the person.

Violent crime down 41% since the 1990's?
Strange, because this Ministry of Justice (I’ll repeat, Ministry of Justice, not Daily Mail) source (Table AA) points out a consistent trend of growing violent crimes under New Labour, such as the following:

‘Violence against the person’ has increased from 255,500 in 1999 to 448,300 in 2006 (increase of 75%)
‘Sexual offences’ have increased from 24,100 in 99 to 32,100 in 2006 (increase of 33%)
‘Robbery’ has increased from 28,800 to 35,400 (increase of 22%)

Sorry to ruin the thread so early.

That would require something more than a strawman and government statistics that contradict...government provided statistics. The only thing ruined is the reliability of government provided data, that seems to differ from department to department and publication to publication.

Kleos is spewing right-wing propaganda, nothing more.

Again, Home Office provided data, not right wing propaganda.

If you're talking about my wish for elected sherrifs I fail to see how me wanting a more localised approach to criminal justice necessarily dictates my political standing.

As for the death penalty, yes, it is generally seens as being associated with the right; but the source I used for the murder rates increasing was the Home Office, and I specifically stated that correlation does not have to mean causation.

Lol, yes, I suppose you would like us to be more like the U.S, wouldn't you Kleos?

Well yes...that was a central point of my post, how the justice system in the US is harsher on criminals than in the UK, and something we can look too for lessons on dealing with crime.

Fact: The number of U.S citizens in the prison system in the U.S has more than doubled since 1989. But I'm sure Kleos fully supports that, no doubt he believes that people are simply twice as likely to commit crime as 19 years ago, and need to be punished accordingly.

The rest of us, those of us who are not prepared to sit back and accept the U.K turning into a police state, we know that the U.S has, since 1989, simply chosen to criminalize twice as many people.

The concerns of this thread in relation to the USA was simply their lower violent crime rate, their system of electing sherrifs and the presence of the death penalty. How many people the US decides lock up for 'minor drug offenders' is not relevant to the failure of the British criminal justice system.
And having a death penalty and localised sherrif elections hardly equals a police state; the elected sherrifs far from it infact.

What Kleos doesn't tell us is that most of the new prisons in America which have been built to house these minor drug offenders were built by and are owned by private businesses.

Kleos doesn't tell you, because Kleos didn't even mention incarcaration rates in the USA!

@Kleos: what political party do you support if you dont mind me asking? Cos i swear i've read this kind of thing in leaflets posted through my door.

Conservatives. Or would you rather I said National Front or BNP? And of what relevance is my political affiliation to my original post, where I drew on government provided data, and not far right propaganda as you imply.

[Erik]

Violent crime down 41%?
Strange, because this Home Office (I’ll repeat, Home Office, not Daily Mail) source (Table AA) points out a consistent trend of growing violent crimes, such as the following:

‘Violence against the person’ has increased from 255,500 in 1999 to 448,300 in 2006 (increase of 75%)
‘Sexual offences’ have increased from 24,100 in 99 to 32,100 in 2006 (increase of 33%)
‘Robbery’ has increased from 28,800 to 35,400 (increase of 22%)

Did you even read you own source? - because I just did and that's NOT what it says.

Don't confuse figures about how many people got ARRESTED for violent crime with how much violent crime there actually is.
What your report actually shows is that the British police has become much tougher on violent crime in the past years.

What the home office actually states is:

Violent crime as measured by the BCS has fallen by 41 per cent since a peak in 1995,
representing over half a million fewer victims.

source: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html - look on page 49.

Conclusion: Britain has become TOUGHER on violent crime, arresting far more offenders than before, and (probably as a result) the amount of violent crime has DECREASED dramatically.

[MasterOfNone]

Kleos,

Good post.

We live in a crazy world. Most people today seem to support measures that will actually make things worse and not better. And more crazy still, they do not see it