dogs (seriously)

[Chief Astook]

An interesting topic about morals can be found in dogs and other canines. Of course there are various reasonings and explanations for things, but that isn't what I want you to think after first reading this. (of course feel free to discuss as you please)


I have noticed a big difference between the wild canines and domesticated dogs when it comes to killing other living creatures.


A wild canine (wolf, dingo, ect.) will only kill for food, self defense, and to defend their young. However a domesticated dog will kill for......well just because in many cases.

I have witnessed this in one of families dogs, who would kill the ducks in a nearby pond for the sheer....well for some reason anyways. The dog is well fed and the ducks are obviously not trying to come over and murder the dog.

Of course there are various biological explanations, but thats the same with humans. We still have the fulcrum point of morality et all that effects our judgement and actions.

A domesticated animal is obviously affected by the humans they coexist with.

It could all just be biological, instinctive of the dog to hunt and kill birds (or anything that moves in some cases).

But if you think about the differences in behaivor in domesticated dogs and true wild canines, well its food for thought eh?

[Valentin the II]

That is incorect.
It all depends on the caynines personality.
For instance: Some wolves kill cayoties for no particular reason while others just ignore them.

[Theseus1234]

domesticated or not, dogs will always retain their primary instinct to hunt. they are descendant from wolves. however, like valentin II said, it depends on the dog's personality. you rarely see a poodle or shi-tzu killing duck

[Hound_Of_Culann]

you rarely see a poodle or shi-tzu killing duck

I've seen a poodle hunt down and kill mice though. I guess their hunter's instinct is so deeply engrained into their brain, they will have a taste for killing things even though they don't really need to. Humans behave similarly sometimes: why would a person eat way too much food, even though the body is already filled with plenty of fat, minerals and vitamins? Because eating as much as you can is a basic human behaviour that doesn't get erased so easily, even if eating too much food can actually cause you harm (IE obesity).

[Gauvin]

you rarely see a poodle or shi-tzu killing duck

My shih-tzu runs after squirrels, cats and birds. I think a lot of it has to do with being territorial. Dogs have been used as guards for centuries. My dog prefers to sleep right in front of my door, as if to guard it, it's pretty neat, really. Not that he would last long in a fight.

He's also my doorbell, since mine is broken, when someone comes to the door he barks until he sees that i'm going to answer it.

[whhyy]

Not that he would last long in a fight.

The flip side is that most crooks run when they hear a dog bark.

[Chaigidel]

anytime any of my animals engage in purposeless killing they are punished severely --but I would not allow my own dog or anyone elses to kill ducks or anything near me.

unless its flies, my dog likes to eat flies and im ok with that.

it is pure instinct to chase stuff down and chew on it though; you cant really blame them just show them different. thats why your a human and they are dogs

[Chief Astook]

If only we could cancel out the barrier that seperates humanity from well, everything else in the universe where we could have some kind of communication with another creature.

I want to ask my dog, why did you kill that duck?
Did you enjoy killing it?

Personality of course comes into play, but there are tiny dogs who would kill elephants if they had the means (ie a gun ect.), just like in humans.

Wolves killing coyotes is an interesting point to bring up. Coyotes are however canines, so it could be akin to tribal wars between humans, pack vs. pack, ect.

[Valentin the II]

If only we could cancel out the barrier that seperates humanity from well, everything else in the universe where we could have some kind of communication with another creature.

Barrier? Nothing is seperating us.
We cant talk to dogs becaws they dont have lipps, neither do they have the inteligence to understand complex questions (or answer them).

I want to ask my dog, why did you kill that duck?
Did you enjoy killing it?

Yes he did.
Any predator enjoyes killing, its what drives them to hunt.

Personality of course comes into play, but there are tiny dogs who would kill elephants if they had the means (ie a gun ect.), just like in humans.

Personality, personality, personality.
Most tiny dogs are born "evil", its in their genes.

Wolves killing coyotes is an interesting point to bring up. Coyotes are however canines, so it could be akin to tribal wars between humans, pack vs. pack, ect.

No, some wolves are just total pricks.
They are different sub-spicies, its like humans killing chimps.

EDIT: Also, from this article witch I already posted:

Nick, an olive baboon, joined his group in the south-east corner of the Masai Mara National Reserve in Kenya, as an adolescent. "The guy simply wasn't nice," recalls biologist Robert Sapolsky from Stanford University. Nick was "confident, unflinching, and played dirty". After a fight in which he trounced another young male, Reuben, the latter retreated with "his ass up in the air", a sign of submission. Instead of letting him be, Nick slashed Reuben's rump with his canines. "He harassed the females, swatted at kids and bullied ancient Gums and Limp," writes Sapolsky. One day, Nick took exception to a female baboon, Ruth. When threatened by a male, a female usually runs up a tree and to the end of a flimsy branch, where the heavier male cannot follow her. "So Ruth gallops up the tree, Nick after her, and Ruth leaps out to a safe edge," Sapolsky recounts. "Nick promptly climbs onto a stronger, thicker branch directly above her. And then urinates on her head."

[Chaigidel]

it is exactly that pack instinct that made dogs so useful to humans for the past 7 thousand years.

[portugal11]

the dog is exerting his "will to power" on the ducks

[Chaigidel]

yes but dog should not feel like he has the will to do that; he gets all his will from the pack leader--- anything else is unacceptable

[dwringer]

yes but dog should not feel like he has the will to do that; he gets all his will from the pack leader--- anything else is unacceptable

Er, dogs aren't ants, or the borg. Their social structures aren't NEARLY that rigid; they're extremely similar to that of humans, thus the ancient cohabitation and coevolution of the species.

[Valentin the II]

Er, dogs aren't ants, or the borg. Their social structures aren't NEARLY that rigid; they're extremely similar to that of humans, thus the ancient cohabitation and coevolution of the species.

You mean Zerg.
And yes, I agree with your point.

[bspiken]

Doubtful, even in packs there is conflict, specially between young and coming males and the leaders. In response to the OP, I have also wondered this, I have had several dogs in my life, some more vicious than others, but once one of my dogs (the more tame one) ran away into the wilds (I lived in my grampa´s ranch at the moment) we lost track of him and considered him death (city dog, not any contact with other animals), but a couple of months later we heard of a huge dog that hunted down chickens and pigs, after finding it we realized that it was our own dog (Orion was his name) and we got it home again.

Now this is interesting because even though he was a bit more aggressive, he was still the same dog, and it would be even less vicious than my other "normal" dog (who would kill ducks, chickens, cats, other dogs). Orion would only kill chickens and only when he was hungry, he tended to be pretty tame normaly (of course I never put it to test, but he never got excited among other animals).

So what gives the instict to kill? Nature or need?

[gambit]

Animals have genes same as us. Some dogs will have bastardly traits, some dogs will have stoic ones, some dogs will have carefree traits. That and how their raised really determines their personality. Obviously if you live in the wild with a pack of 3 or 4 of your buddies, you learn to survive and pick your fights.

Since how a dog lives in a human environment varies from house to house they have all sorts of personality traits. Some are passive and raised to be nice to strangers unless they pose an obvious threat. Some are raised as spoiled little rats that are coddled from birth to death (see paris hilton) Some are raised as guard dogs or even for fighting and they'll go chew up a motha****a for no reason, and in any case they still have animal instinct which guides pretty much all they do next to what they've been taught by humans.

Plus it's fun to bite things.

[Chief Astook]

I suppose I prefer thinking about animal morality because of the simplicity compared to humans.....its odd because we are really the same we just make things a lot more complicated (or is that inheirent in being sentinent?)

[Musashi]

You are more incorrect than you think. Actually it's otherway around. Wolfs kill dogs. They also do it pretty easily. I live in a country where there is wild wolfs in under one kilometere radius from where I am now and I have seen pictures of Dopermans and other big dogs killed by wolfs and the owners say that wolf had no trouble doing it. Yes, just one wolf.

Dogs don't have strong killer instincts like wolfs. They rarely have to kill to get food so they really more often kill small animals by axidently.
They get exited about a smal rabit running trough the yard and grap it too hard.
However dogs don't have any remorse so they really don't mind if the animal died and so they do it again.

[white-wolf]

You are more incorrect than you think. Actually it's otherway around. Wolfs kill dogs. They also do it pretty easily. I live in a country where there is wild wolfs in under one kilometere radius from where I am now and I have seen pictures of Dopermans and other big dogs killed by wolfs and the owners say that wolf had no trouble doing it. Yes, just one wolf.

Then, get a Kangal. It is a real wolf-killer dog.

[gambit]

Not so true Musashi. I used to have two dogs (Rotweiler/Chou/Pitdog mix, basically satan with four legs) One male and one female, the female being the 'daughter' of the male. They were big dogs but the male was trained to be pretty docile and the female was spoiled as . She wasn't a mean spoiled either, she was the friendlist dog ever, only pounced on you to lick you till you could swim away from her in the drool.

Anywho, one day they ran away and we found them in like 2 hours. We found them eating a pretty big deer they had taken down, and they weren't starving or anything. They had emptied their food bowls that morning, since they basically scarf them down once we fill them and it was around noonish.

I would literally LOL at the wolf who thought they could take down our dogs. Awesomely named Elvis and Sissy.