The wedge formation

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Greetings all,

Does anyone here use the wedge formation at all, and to any great effect? What advantages does it have over the standard one?

[Carl von Döbeln]

It's good against spearwalls etc

[Yojimbo]

Seems pointless to me. The wider the formation the more horsemen hit home with their charge bonus and more enemies are killed from the charge meaning less to face in melee. The wedge doesn't hit so many with its charge. Its useless.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Seems pointless to me. The wider the formation the more horsemen hit home with their charge bonus and more enemies are killed from the charge meaning less to face in melee. The wedge doesn't hit so many with its charge. Its useless.

This is exactly my opinion of it.

It does not divide or scatter enemy units at all: all that happens is your front few men die rapidly and waste a good charge, as far as I can tell.

[Samir]

you can charge 2 units of cavalry into 1 unit of the enemy, even if they are better it routes them usually. if it is the center of the enemy, you basically divided the enemy army and therefore in most cases won the battle already.

gaps in the enemies battle line are more devastating to their morale than most other things!

of course I would not want to be the first knight in that formation

[Double A]

you can charge 2 units of cavalry into 1 unit of the enemy, even if they are better it routes them usually. if it is the center of the enemy, you basically divided the enemy army and therefore in most cases won the battle already.

gaps in the enemies battle line are more devastating to their morale than most other things!

of course I would not want to be the first knight in that formation

like a roman general in RTW?

[Xamt]

i only use the wedge formation when i want to reach a unit sitting behind another (ie archers sitting behind any non-spear unit)... i charge the archer unit... end result? my knights punch through the "guarding" unit into the archers (when they dont run away) .... if i cant reach the archers coz they run away then ill click to move my knights through the "guard" unit to chase the archers

works just as well (or better) for reaching siege engines

edit: yes i have heard of flanking, but sometimes archers are in the middle of a formation that has heavy cavalry lurking in the back

[Akimbo]

i only use the wedge formation when i want to reach a unit sitting behind another (ie archers sitting behind any non-spear unit)... i charge the archer unit... end result? my knights punch through the "guarding" unit into the archers (when they dont run away) .... if i cant reach the archers coz they run away then ill click to move my knights through the "guard" unit to chase the archers

works just as well (or better) for reaching siege engines

edit: yes i have heard of flanking, but sometimes archers are in the middle of a formation that has heavy cavalry lurking in the back

Doesn't seem to work, since the charge starts too late, and stops too early.

I only have used the wedge to break a hole in the enemy line. I do this by striking between two units and continuing to charge through the line. Once on the other side, the cav reforms in line and charges against the rear of engaged units.

As others have observed, the wedge (or any other formation for that matter) cannot split a unit into two pieces on a consistent basis.

How does one "contunue to charge through the line" the unit stops and engages in melee as soon as it hits another unit.

[Viking Prince]

How does one "contunue to charge through the line" the unit stops and engages in melee as soon as it hits another unit.

You are charging between units and not thru units. As long as the heavy cav is at speed and in good form, the unit should be able to break thru the line. Does not work every time. Just pull the unit back and try again. No differant than how you proceed with a line charge, pull back, and charge again.

[Xamt]

Doesn't seem to work, since the charge starts too late, and stops too early.

never trust the ai to do a human's work ... dont click attack and wait for your men to get there at their own leisure.... double click attack (or click attack and then run) so ur men already gallop at full pace and they WILL run through the first unit (unless its spears/pikes)

[Akimbo]

It should split units and formations apart, and the entire out edge of the wedge should strike home with the charge. Head on I don't think I'd advise it, but perhaps it works well with flank or rear attacks. Still I prefer having a wide front to kill as many people as possible with the initial charge...

[Old Geezer]

The biggest problem that I had with the wedge formation was that the formation gets out of shape and loses its effectiveness too easily. Also, if you run into a good defensive unit or another similar charging cavalry unit you will take more losses than you would have if you had been in a strectched out line of 2 ranks. I ran tests of charging mailed knights and the wedge always lost to the spread out formation when they charged each other.

[Quink.NL]

I never use the wedge in RTW, neither in M2TW. The AI seems to use it more often than not actually, but I can't say I'm impressed by his wedge attacks...

[Akimbo]

Just playing around with it now, one unit of knights vs highland rabble. Chose knights vs a weak unit to really show the difference in effect of non-wedge vs wedge. Each was tested at least 6 times. ( Unit sizes are the largest possible )

Two lines of Knights = Slaughter, 75%+ the enemy die instantly. Sometimes a fight to the death ensues between the knights and the last 30-40 rabble.

Two lines of Knights, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, entire enemy unit dies nearly instantly, no fight after, just end of battle.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation = Slaughter, seems more reliable to insta-route the enemy than two lines in normal formation.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, a little less reliable than the previous two however.

Now onto wedges

Standard Wedge = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact.

Standard Wedge, Guard Mode = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact. Rear of wedge doesn't commit fast enough, slightly worse than just a standard wedge.

Standard Wedge, loose formation = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact, slightly more kills on initial impact but nothing significant.

Standard Wedge, loose formation, Guard Mode = Average, around half the enemy survive. Seems very hit or miss, but I managed a few instant routes with this set up, sometimes the knights behind seem to continue charging and they flatten a few more.

So far I wouln't risk using knights in wedge formation - ever.

I think the problem comes because the entire unit ends it's charge a few seconds after the initial impact, and in wedge formation well over half the unit hasn't connected by the time this occurs. Is it possible to disable swords for knights, and have them use the lance and nothing else?

[Yojimbo]

Just playing around with it now, one unit of knights vs highland rabble. Chose knights vs a weak unit to really show the difference in effect of non-wedge vs wedge. Each was tested at least 6 times. ( Unit sizes are the largest possible )

Two lines of Knights = Slaughter, 75%+ the enemy die instantly. Sometimes a fight to the death ensues between the knights and the last 30-40 rabble.

Two lines of Knights, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, entire enemy unit dies nearly instantly, no fight after, just end of battle.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation = Slaughter, seems more reliable to insta-route the enemy than two lines in normal formation.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, a little less reliable than the previous two however.

Now onto wedges

Standard Wedge = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact.

Standard Wedge, Guard Mode = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact. Rear of wedge doesn't commit fast enough, slightly worse than just a standard wedge.

Standard Wedge, loose formation = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact, slightly more kills on initial impact but nothing significant.

Standard Wedge, loose formation, Guard Mode = Average, around half the enemy survive. Seems very hit or miss, but I managed a few instant routes with this set up, sometimes the knights behind seem to continue charging and they flatten a few more.

So far I wouln't risk using knights in wedge formation - ever.

I think the problem comes because the entire unit ends it's charge a few seconds after the initial impact, and in wedge formation well over half the unit hasn't connected by the time this occurs. Is it possible to disable swords for knights, and have them use the lance and nothing else?

Wow interesting read! I had no idea guard mode would be good for charging knights! I guess we know for sure now wedge is useless. +rep.

[Anglo-Pole]

Just playing around with it now, one unit of knights vs highland rabble. Chose knights vs a weak unit to really show the difference in effect of non-wedge vs wedge. Each was tested at least 6 times. ( Unit sizes are the largest possible )

Two lines of Knights = Slaughter, 75%+ the enemy die instantly. Sometimes a fight to the death ensues between the knights and the last 30-40 rabble.

Two lines of Knights, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, entire enemy unit dies nearly instantly, no fight after, just end of battle.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation = Slaughter, seems more reliable to insta-route the enemy than two lines in normal formation.

Two lines of Knights, loose formation, Guard Mode on = Slaughter, a little less reliable than the previous two however.

Now onto wedges

Standard Wedge = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact.

Standard Wedge, Guard Mode = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact. Rear of wedge doesn't commit fast enough, slightly worse than just a standard wedge.

Standard Wedge, loose formation = Poor, over 80% of the enemy survive. Charge stops after first 5-10 knights impact, slightly more kills on initial impact but nothing significant.

Standard Wedge, loose formation, Guard Mode = Average, around half the enemy survive. Seems very hit or miss, but I managed a few instant routes with this set up, sometimes the knights behind seem to continue charging and they flatten a few more.

So far I wouln't risk using knights in wedge formation - ever.

I think the problem comes because the entire unit ends it's charge a few seconds after the initial impact, and in wedge formation well over half the unit hasn't connected by the time this occurs. Is it possible to disable swords for knights, and have them use the lance and nothing else?

Like said above me this was an interesting read. Thanks for providing us with the information about this +rep

[Anglo-Pole]

I would only every use it when attacking a flank or from behind - usually from behind. I rarely use it however anyway.

[Yojimbo]

This wedge problem reminds me of the old way charging spears in MTW1 was bad because the whole unit stopped when one man reached the enemy You should instead halt in front of them, hold formation and let them charge you.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Anyone know what files you'd need to change to modify the formation so that it's any good?

[Theseus1234]

ahhh the mighty duck formation, the subject of rants of anger and complaints