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Thread: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

  1. #121
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by scottishranger View Post
    Exactly, we need to make sure the TOS clearly defines this. In my opinion, it should be limited to negatives. Accusations of hypocrisy should be fine. Accusations of ignorance, when the person is clearly ignorant of what he is talking about and the facts, should be allowed.
    The problem with that is that many of these discussions are about opinions, not solid facts. When you say someone is "clearly ignorant" based on their opinions, its hardly clear. Especially with topics in the Pit. For damn near any position you take, you can quote "experts" that agree with your opinion. I can take the opposite side, and find just as many "experts" and then call you ignorant because you choose to believe your experts instead of mine. Allowing that serves no purpose at all.

  2. #122
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Exactly!

    We'll also end up in the situation with Catholic and Protestant or Sunni and Shia insulting each other over interpretation. The use of the word 'ignorant' will simply derail threads - there are many areas where opinions are taken as fact. There are many ares where there is disagreement of what is fact and what is opinion.

  3. #123
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Well then this is about whether or not ignorant is a negative personal reference or still regarding the rule I proposed?

  4. #124

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39 View Post
    Exactly!

    We'll also end up in the situation with Catholic and Protestant or Sunni and Shia insulting each other over interpretation. The use of the word 'ignorant' will simply derail threads - there are many areas where opinions are taken as fact. There are many ares where there is disagreement of what is fact and what is opinion.
    I do not see a problem with insulting somebody's interpretation of Christianity that homosexuality should be punished, or that evolution has no scientific backing or when certain members I could name tell us with all sincerity there's no such thing as "randomly beneficial mutations."

    People have these views and they volunteer them on a discussion and debate forum where they know other people will respond to them. It is not our duty to protect their world views, and if they are unable to rationally and factually back them up then they probably are ignorant. We should protect the person, I don't want to see anybody attacked for being Christian (or Sunni or Shia of which apparently TWC is rife with sectarian conflict with) and that would not be tolerated. But their views are not sacrosanct and its their choice to volunteer them, and not our duty to protect them.

    Quote Originally Posted by imb39 View Post
    Rogue moderation? I don't think it's been even remotely that bad - let's not over play things here. I know we all have audiences to play to, but let's keep things in perspective.
    Then your memory is failing you. We have a decent enough, if not somewhat pedantic and joyless moderating team currently, but there's no garauntees there will be no more Crandars or Honor & Glorys and you and I have been here picking up the pieces when trusting to moderator discretion blindly left this forum almost destroyed on no less than two occaisions in a relatively short period of time.
    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; July 10, 2008 at 04:53 AM.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    You honestly think Ian would let it go that far?

  6. #126
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    You honestly think Ian would let it go that far?
    If twc has taught me anything, it has taught me that the fabric and stability of a community is very thin. It doesn't take much to bring about chaos. One wrong choice in a Moderator, maybe too many spams lately had made him and Hex a little more sympathetic to the Moderators positioning, and so they let it slide for a bit...

    Hell, its happened before.

  7. #127

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    You honestly think Ian would let it go that far?
    No. But is Ian to be in control for ever? Is Ian never going to take a leave of absence? Is Ian never going to go crazy and ban everybody. Garauntee me these things and you have a point. I am just accepting the basic human flaws inherent in us all and am writing a ToS for reality.

  8. #128
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    If twc has taught me anything, it has taught me that the fabric and stability of a community is very thin. It doesn't take much to bring about chaos. One wrong choice in a Moderator, maybe too many spams lately had made him and Hex a little more sympathetic to the Moderators positioning, and so they let it slide for a bit...

    Hell, its happened before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    No. But is Ian to be in control for ever? Is Ian never going to take a leave of absence? Is Ian never going to go crazy and ban everybody. Garauntee me these things and you have a point. I am just accepting the basic human flaws inherent in us all and am writing a ToS for reality.
    There are no promises, you are smart enough to know that. You are also smart enough to know that if Ian decided to go off on a tangent like this, nothing you or I could write in a TWC "law" could stop him. He owns the site, and can do as he damn well pleases. The fact that he agreed to something then went against it might make him feel a bit guilty, but if he did go off the deep end he probably wouldnt care anyways.

    As for him not being in control, for a leave of absence. I actually wish he would take some time off, he probably needs it. But even if he is gone for 6 months and never puts a word in, any "law" thats written is meaningless if the guy in charge refuses to acknowledge it. Ian would fix things when he came back.

    If he lost control of the site by selling the site, a new owner could and probably would make quite a few changes, and not one damn thing we post here would be binding on him/her.

    The stuff we do here should be geared towards the day to day running of the site not some apocalypse that has small chance of happening. Just because it happened once doesnt mean it has any real chance of happening again.

    You gear the language towards the every day occurrences, and you train the moderators as you go. This way by the time they are ready to assume any real power, such as taking over while Ian is on vacation, they know what is expected from them not only by Ian, but by the rest of the site too. Trying to write language to cover any possible thing that could happen is not only a waste of time, but damn near impossible anways.


    All that aside, I have no issue with making the ToS Off Topic language apply to negative personal comments only, but I would be against removing the Off Topic language entirely.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Well GED if we are so spunk damned to human failure then let us not write a ToS at all an just embrace our demise like men!

    Or we could write the ToS best suited to reality as possible. I support Boeing's suggestion about adding the elaboration on negative comments. I feel this is a compramise on our part - I am glad you agree.

    But it needs to be moved away from off-topic, and we have shown how you can legitimately refer to another member and be on-topic. It's simply absurd to suggest otherwise.
    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; July 11, 2008 at 06:58 PM.

  10. #130
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    But it needs to be moved away from off-topic, and we have shown how you can legitimately refer to another member and be on-topic. It's simply absurd to suggest otherwise.
    Of course you can, but you can also refer to another member in a way that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and only damages the conversation, even if its not in an insulting way. Such as the current TOS Committee Discussion Thread.

    Hotspur was right to intervene, and I am not saying that every time something similar happens that some fool should get a note. But there are times when said fool should get a note, and the moderators need a mechanism to provide for that.

  11. #131

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    You seem to agree with us in every regard except that it would mean agreeing with us, which is workable. Negative references it is!

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    You seem to agree with us in every regard except that it would mean agreeing with us, which is workable. Negative references it is!
    lol no not quite.

    I agree that it should be negative reference. I disagree that it will have any effect on anything at all if Ian loses control of the site (or his mind), be it for leave of absence or actually selling the site.

    Call it semantics if you wish, thats just the way I see it.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Fine. But TWC is unstable, and for all any of us know we're just in the eye of the storm. I will er on the side of caution.

  14. #134
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    What you seem to forget, though, is if things get to that stage the ToS won't be worth much as it could be changed at will, anyway. None of this is worth a damn if we get into the situation where moderators routinely abuse their position. The argument is a red herring, in my book. You draw on these anomalies as things to guard against rather than the more common and, dare I say it, more insidious problems that this rule is designed to stop.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    And like I said if we're working on the assumption the ToS is ultimately useless then we shouldn't even bother.

  16. #136
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

    Its only useless if you assume that Ian "loses control". If moderators routinely abuse their positions, it is his job to remove them and I have no doubts that he will do that, which will solve the problem.

    Under all other circumstances it applies, and those are the circumstances we should gear the language towards.

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