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  1. #1
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran
    By Anatol Lieven

    Published: July 6 2008 18:23 | Last updated: July 6 2008 18:23

    All the evidence suggests that an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear sites would be a disaster for the greater Middle East, for the world economy and for western security. It would not even benefit Israel, which is adequately protected by its own nuclear deterrent. On the contrary, by creating new links between Sunni and Shia extremism, it would worsen Israel’s long-term chances of survival. Finally, as last week’s remarks by Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, indicated, an attack is strongly opposed by the US military. They would bear the first brunt of Iranian reprisals, since the US would rightly be held jointly responsible by Iran, and US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more open to Iranian-sponsored attack than is Israel itself.

    The British government can stop this nonsense. All that it needs to do is make clear to the US administration, initially in private but in public if necessary, that the consequence of an attack would be complete British military withdrawal, not only from Iraq but from Afghanistan as well.

    Israel must have US acquiescence to launch an attack since by far the easiest route for one lies over US-controlled Iraq. By starting the withdrawal of most of the Nato forces from Afghanistan, British withdrawal would throw an immense new burden on the US military, strip the Afghan operation of its international legitimacy and almost certainly wreck it altogether.

    For these reasons, this is not a step that, as a friend of Afghanistan, I would ever advocate, were it not for one blindingly obvious fact: that a US-backed Israeli attack on Iran will in any case doom our enterprise in Afghanistan to irretrievable failure. From the moment that Israeli munitions fall on Iran, all hope of stabilising Afghanistan on western terms will be lost. From then on, every British soldier who dies in Afghanistan will die for nothing.

    Or rather, they will die for nothing in terms of achievable policy objectives. They will die as British regular soldiers have always died, for pride of service and loyalty to comrades and to regiment, and for this they will deserve the highest honour. A British government that leaves them to die in a hopeless cause would, on the other hand, deserve no honour at all.

    All this stems from the simple truth that Afghanistan is not an island and cannot be saved in isolation. To east and south it is bordered by Pakistan, whose government is deeply equivocal towards the western military presence and the administration of President Hamid Karzai. The Pashtun population of Pakistan along the border is hostile to the western military and prov**ides not just safe havens for the Taliban but a considerable share of its manpower.

    To the west, Afghanistan is bordered by Iran, its most important trading partner. In failing to enlist active Iranian help in Afghanistan, the west has already lost its best chance of success in developing that country. If Iran’s present watchful attitude becomes outright hostility and full Iranian support for the Taliban, then western-backed Afghanistan will be surrounded on three sides by enemies, as Soviet Afghanistan was in the 1980s.

    At present, according to informed western sources, Iran’s strategy towards the Taliban has been to open lines of communication but provide only symbolic amounts of aid. After all, so hostile were relations between Taliban Afghanistan and Iran that the countries almost went to war in 1998, and Iran supported the US overthrow of the Taliban after 9/11. Today, however, Iran has positioned itself so as to increase its help to the Taliban greatly if it is attacked by Israel and the US.

    The Karzai administration is aware of all this, which is why all its leading elements are opposed to an attack on Iran and have done their utmost to improve relations with Tehran. This is also the strategy of the government of Iraq. If the US not only sweeps aside these views but allows Israel to cross Iraqi airspace, it will have ripped away even the façade of Afghan and Iraqi national sovereignty.

    The British establishment supports the “special relationship” in large part because it believes that closeness to Washington allows Britain to “punch above its weight” in the world. Much of this belief is mythical. The issue of an Israeli attack on Iran, however, is one where a British government really can have a decisive effect and has a categorical duty to do so.


    The writer is a professor at King’s College London and a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1056805e-4...077b07658.html

    Views?

    I dont whole heartedly support the views expressed in the article, however it does raise several good points with regards to the impact upon the world if an attack is mounted - Economy and regional effects in Afghanistan and Iraq especially.

    Personally i think Israel will be relatively ok (its not like they havent faced hardship before) - Egypt are largely influenced by america these days, Lebanon's all over the place and Syria arent really in a position to do anything without allies other than support groups like hezbollah and/or hamas (as is the current status quo anyway.. albeit more peaceful than previous times) - all i can see happening with israel is massively increased terrorist activity.

    The obvious economical effects could be hugely upon already dodgey oil priced, and the situation in both afghansitan and iraq are hanging by a bit of a thread.

    Certainly think Iran need to be reined in though, its unfortunate american strategy in the ME has completely and utterly backfired on them (wanting to get a position of strength there has turned into the complete opposite)

    On top of all that, i also think britain's ability to influence american actions is pretty limited and overestimated. America listens to the UK only when sharing the same viewpoint, otherwise america tell us to off - such has been the 'special relationship' since even before ww2 ended.

  2. #2

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    America has a lot of leverage on Iran, gained through economic sanctions. They need to exploit that leverage in negotiations before anyone is allowed to go in and the world up by attacking Iran.

    Attacking Iran would mean turning the region into a fireball over a paper tiger threat. I hope the UK can do something.
    Last edited by Garnier; July 13, 2008 at 06:30 PM.

  3. #3
    Red_legged_devils's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    ITs really quiet simple....

    VX Gas....Isreal has a suicide wish im guesssing its to breath in VX gas from iran and syria....And Maybe this time isreal will learn to stay in its borders and leave people alone or leave the middle east....America will suffer greatly the worlds markets will crash becouse of the prices that will rise....Iran will sink ships in the strights....And Europe will be Very Sorry russia lol Russia isent going to give you any oil and it will cut you off when it see's Fit....Russia and china are biteing at the bit i predict the start of ww3 in some form or anouther washington seems to be heading on a course of suicide....IF isreal survives the out rage of an attack on innocents it will be a Merical of the first order....Those who live by the sword will there for Die by it....And what gos around comes around....I think Isreal will pay dearly for this mistake, 100 times more humiliateing then there loss to lebonsese rebles....

    Id say think twise Before makeing the mistake But of course its already to late...plans on the table for years...The world is looming towards a New dark age....Be happy with what you have now...For the world as you know it is about to come crashing down....

  4. #4

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    A nuclear armed Iran is not of anyones interest, apart from a few extremists. There are other courses Israel must take first but of all the countries mentioned, Israel is the country within range of iranian missiles and Israel is the first to pay the price of Iran becomes nuclear.


    VX Gas....Isreal has a suicide wish im guesssing its to breath in VX gas from iran and syria....And Maybe this time isreal will learn to stay in its borders and leave people alone or leave the middle east....
    It seems israels neighbours have more of a tendency to cross its borders, when not sending large explosive gifts across

    America will suffer greatly the worlds markets will crash becouse of the prices that will rise....
    America has other sources of oil It can explore, Canada for example has plenty of oil, and if oil prices show themselves to remain high then is likely canada would step up oil sands production


    Iran will sink ships in the strights....And Europe will be Very Sorry russia lol Russia isent going to give you any oil and it will cut you off when it see's Fit....
    Russias main industry is selling oil, cutting off europe would mean cutting off one of their largest buyers, why would russia risk oil sales to europe for arms sales to Iran, when the oil sales are far more profitable to a continent of 900 million people.

    Russia and china are biteing at the bit i predict the start of ww3 in some form or anouther washington seems to be heading on a course of suicide....
    americas been through far worse.

    IF isreal survives the out rage of an attack on innocents it will be a Merical of the first order....
    So striking at nuclear development sites is a attack on innocents now?


    Those who live by the sword will there for Die by it....
    the sword has kept israel alive

    And what gos around comes around....I think Isreal will pay dearly for this mistake, 100 times more humiliateing then there loss to lebonsese rebles....
    Israel went in, kicked ass and killed hundreds of rebels, and left because of international pressure.... this is called losing to lebanese rebels ?

    Do not insult a military far more ordered and well armed then a bunch of guys holding children as body armour ( called hezbollah)


    Turn the Pro Western Iranian majority into anti American (Western) nutjobs. They would be fed government propaganda that they have been up until now clearly ignoring in regard to the west. An attack on Iran would not merely weaken the chances of a democratic Iran - it would kill it.
    A attack on nuclear depots that in no ways effects Iranian citizens is unlikely to turn people who hate their government into western haters


    It would not stop the Iranian Nuclear program, but instead cause them to rush for nuclear weapons.
    It would stall it for at least another 10 years, in which another strike would be needed, and lets view that logic for second.


    I try building a bomb


    police blow up bomb and destroy my materials because it is against law

    I build another bigger bomb?
    Last edited by humvee2800; July 06, 2008 at 07:20 PM.

    Let's just hope they were fascist communist kittens who were on their way to international fascist communist fair.

  5. #5

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    A attack on nuclear depots that in no ways effects Iranian citizens is unlikely to turn people who hate their government into western haters
    Humvee, you clearly have very little understanding of the Iranian government and its people. Do you know what it means to attack a country of 70 million people?



    It would stall it for at least another 10 years, in which another strike would be needed, and lets view that logic for second.


    I try building a bomb


    police blow up bomb and destroy my materials because it is against law

    I build another bigger bomb?
    This is just speculation. You lack the knowledge to back it up.

    The truth is that the US is pretty much prevented from attacking Iran due to domestic and (not that Bush really cares) international public opinion. Israel however is not, and they know it. So where they can play the "omg think about world public opinion" card to the US, Israel just doesn't give a and isn't going to risk their existence because of what some guy in France thinks they should do. So while US pressure is the only thing that MIGHT be able to prevent them from attacking Iran, that is not even a given.
    Israel does not have the air power to pull it off without U.S support. Their plan for attacking Iran includes only 100 aircraft, they could only hit less than a quarter of the required targets.
    Last edited by whhyy; July 06, 2008 at 07:31 PM.

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    Thule's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    So what if the Iranians make a nuke? I don't like USA having one, or the Israel, or some other countries, so one more doesn't make all that much difference. As if anyone is going to use them. Oh yes, and no one actually proved that Iran is developing nuclear program for anything else but civilian purposes. USA signed an agreement with them in the 1950s called "Atoms for peace" concerning the help in developing a civilian nuclear potential. But now we just don't like their government, so let's kill 'em all. We want to establish a democracy in a far away place that most of the world can't even point on a map, so let's invade them. And Israel... the biggest terrorist in the Middle East... armed with a nuke.






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  7. #7

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    So what if the Iranians make a nuke? I don't like USA having one, or the Israel, or some other countries, so one more doesn't make all that much difference. As if anyone is going to use them. Oh yes, and no one actually proved that Iran is developing nuclear program for anything else but civilian purposes. USA signed an agreement with them in the 1950s called "Atoms for peace" concerning the help in developing a civilian nuclear potential. But now we just don't like their government, so let's kill 'em all. We want to establish a democracy in a far away place that most of the world can't even point on a map, so let's invade them.
    The problem is, if, and I mean if Iran is developing nuclear weapons, and if they aquire them large swathes of people would be inclined to move from Israel, hurting their economy. Atleast that's what they're afraid of happening. I've also stated that an attack on Iran would kill the chance of democracy in the region.

    And Israel... the biggest terrorist in the Middle East... armed with a nuke.
    The Israelis are not terrorists and saying they are does not help.

  8. #8
    Lord Romanus III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    So what if the Iranians make a nuke?
    Hmmm.... so what if the Iranians have a nuke? They would definitely use it for defense purposes. I care if they have a nuke. That will allow them to have alot more influence than they should and I don't want Mr. I can't say his name to even think about owning one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    I don't like USA having one, or the Israel, or some other countries, so one more doesn't make all that much difference. As if anyone is going to use them.
    If you don't like other countries having nukes, why let Iran? We used ours in WW2. Maybe some over-zealous dictator might use one. Sounds like someone saying (Hitler will never invade Poland.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    Oh yes, and no one actually proved that Iran is developing nuclear program for anything else but civilian purposes. USA signed an agreement with them in the 1950s called "Atoms for peace" concerning the help in developing a civilian nuclear potential. But now we just don't like their government, so let's kill 'em all. We want to establish a democracy in a far away place that most of the world can't even point on a map, so let's invade them..
    We don't just dislike their government we dislike their lifestyle. We believe we are right and have the power to enforce our will. Remember, it doesn't matter if we should respect their culture because it is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    And Israel... the biggest terrorist in the Middle East... armed with a nuke.
    Yeah the biggest terrorist organization of them all, the Jews!


    By the way, I doubt Britain will be able to influence us that much.

  9. #9
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_legged_devils View Post
    ITs really quiet simple....

    VX Gas....Isreal has a suicide wish im guesssing its to breath in VX gas from iran and syria....And Maybe this time isreal will learn to stay in its borders and leave people alone or leave the middle east....America will suffer greatly the worlds markets will crash becouse of the prices that will rise....Iran will sink ships in the strights....And Europe will be Very Sorry russia lol Russia isent going to give you any oil and it will cut you off when it see's Fit....Russia and china are biteing at the bit i predict the start of ww3 in some form or anouther washington seems to be heading on a course of suicide....IF isreal survives the out rage of an attack on innocents it will be a Merical of the first order....Those who live by the sword will there for Die by it....And what gos around comes around....I think Isreal will pay dearly for this mistake, 100 times more humiliateing then there loss to lebonsese rebles....

    Id say think twise Before makeing the mistake But of course its already to late...plans on the table for years...The world is looming towards a New dark age....Be happy with what you have now...For the world as you know it is about to come crashing down....
    what a horrible post, and i dont just mean the terrible grammar.

    Quote Originally Posted by whhyy View Post
    Israel does not have the air power to pull it off without U.S support. Their plan for attacking Iran includes only 100 aircraft, they could only hit less than a quarter of the required targets.
    hmm, there are over 100 different sites for this nuclear program?

    to predict what israel would do we'd probably have to look at the most recent air strike made on syria, seeing as syria and iran use the same air defence system a similar outcome would probably be the result, the trouble is getting there, and back - iraqi government doesnt want israeli planes flying over its sovereignty.

    The us support would come in the form in possibly 1) putting pressure on iraq to give air access to israeli fly overs, 2) intelligence 3) tactics (as they did with the syrian strike) on how to take down the air defence and so forth. It wont come in the form of material ie planes attacking iranian installations too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thule View Post
    And Israel... the biggest terrorist in the Middle East... armed with a nuke.
    they got it because its neighbours kept attacking it and threatening its survival.

    Nobody was really threatening iranian survival when their nuclear program began (no, dont say america did by putting them on the axis of evil, the nuclear program pre dates that by some time). They sit on one of the largest oil reserves in the world and as a result arguably dont need nuclear power. They also constantly call for israel's annihilation, supply terrorist organisations with expensive weapons; nuclear material could potentially fall into the hands of such terrorists much like highly dangerous nuclear material fell into the hands of a russian assassin (but the russians claim to have nothing to do with that..)
    Last edited by Carach; July 06, 2008 at 08:04 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    @ Carach

    Well it wouldn't be anything like attacking Syria, sadly.

    @ Joker

    I know you don't take that bs seriously.

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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Well this is all really academic since the UK has no such leverage on American policy, even if it wanted to carry out the authors wish.

    As for Iran, the problem is it is not so easy to isolate them than say has been done with North Korea.
    Last edited by Syron; July 06, 2008 at 07:00 PM.
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    well, I think you summed it up accuratly OP.

    but as always: violence is not the Answer. the Invasion of iraq has led to trouble, and invading Iran will be worse: for starters, Iran will be a logistical nightmare: it's essentially a big mountain range. the poeple there are anti-American, and the army will be on the defensive. an attack on Iran would be folly.

    that said, Britain is not as influential as it was in WW2 or WW1. whether the US attaks or not is dependant on the US administration, and what the world will do. the latter can cancel the former out, since it is known that Iran has dumped its nuke weapons technology. however they didn't stop th nuclear power research, and that could be used as a cover. but since no one can prove nukes exist in Iran, we cannot legitimately attack anyways.
    I haz a culler!! (really, who gives a darn? its totally meaningless, and it doesn't really accurately reflect who I am)


  13. #13

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    The economic sanctions have been failing in the respect that they would stop Iran's nuclear program - the Iranian leadership will never admit they're wrong, it would be humiliating. So they are continuing... but at the same time they are not ruling out negotiations, infact they want them more than anything.

    The U.S can use their leverage and influence in the region to bargian with Iran and come to reasonable compromises. A step foward to democracy in the region - however small.

    I will go over the alternative.

    Attack Iran:

    Turn the Pro Western Iranian majority into anti American (Western) nutjobs. They would be fed government propaganda that they have been up until now clearly ignoring in regard to the west. An attack on Iran would not merely weaken the chances of a democratic Iran - it would kill it.

    It would not stop the Iranian Nuclear program, but instead cause them to rush for nuclear weapons.

    Violence is not the answer today.

    Not only the UK, but other countries should try and express their joint concern over the matter, stating facts. Hopefully putting the groups that want war in the US and Israel in a difficult situation...
    Last edited by whhyy; July 06, 2008 at 07:21 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Pretty idiotic suggestion. Basically kill NATO over Iran. Not too smart. The UK has 8,000 troops in Afghanistan and about 4000 in Iraq. The US has 180,000 troops in the region, plus another 50,000 sitting around doing nothing in Japan. If they had to replace the 12,000 or so British troops in Iraq/Afghanistan it could be done. Obviously it would be a strain and the political implications would pretty much end the transatlantic relationship and with it NATO. But it would not force the US to somehow subdue Israel nor would it cause the collapse of the Afghan government (and obviously not the Iraqi government).

    So basically it would be one giant bluff on the part of the British that everyone knows they could/would never carry out. If the British don't want an attack on Iran they should

    A. Ensure Iran stops trying to produce nuclear weapons
    B. Take it up directly with Israel

    The truth is that the US is pretty much prevented from attacking Iran due to domestic and (not that Bush really cares) international public opinion. Israel however is not, and they know it. So where they can play the "omg think about world public opinion" card to the US, Israel just doesn't give a and isn't going to risk their existence because of what some guy in France thinks they should do. So while US pressure is the only thing that MIGHT be able to prevent them from attacking Iran, that is not even a given.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    All the evidence suggests that an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear sites would be a disaster for the greater Middle East, for the world economy and for western security. It would not even benefit Israel, which is adequately protected by its own nuclear deterrent. On the contrary, by creating new links between Sunni and Shia extremism, it would worsen Israel’s long-term chances of survival.

    The British government can stop this nonsense.
    If this "coming attack" would worsen Israel's chances for survival, then why are they even considering it? Does the author of this article purport to know more about Middle Eastern, and Israeli, situation, than the Middle-Easterners and Israelis themselves?
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 06, 2008 at 07:56 PM.


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    God-Emperor of Mankind's Avatar Apperently I protect
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    If this "coming attack" would worsen Israel's chances for survival, then why are they even considering it? Does the author of this article purport to know more about Middle Eastern, and Israeli, situation, than the Middle-Easterners and Israelis themselves?
    Well it's kinda the same thing with Iran really.
    Mean if using nukes against Israel would destroy Iran's chance of survival, why are they even considering it ??
    I think the answer is simple, whoever keep coming up with these scenarios is under the impression that either one of the side is a complete moron that wanna destroy their own country.

  17. #17

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by TB666 View Post
    Well it's kinda the same thing with Iran really.
    Mean if using nukes against Israel would destroy Iran's chance of survival, why are they even considering it ??
    I think the answer is simple, whoever keep coming up with these scenarios is under the impression that either one of the side is a complete moron that wanna destroy their own country.
    Except that Iran has said they can "win" a nuclear war as long as one muslim is alive and zero jews are.

    So their definition of victory is basically 1.3b vs 6m which is rightfully terrifying for Israel.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joker85 View Post
    Except that Iran has said they can "win" a nuclear war as long as one muslim is alive and zero jews are.

    So their definition of victory is basically 1.3b vs 6m which is rightfully terrifying for Israel.
    Never heard that, link ??

  19. #19

    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    Quote Originally Posted by TB666 View Post
    Never heard that, link ??
    If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar_Hashemi_Rafsanjani

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    Default Re: "Britain must act to prevent an attack on Iran"

    @Oglethorpe1983

    I am not going to attack you. Is there a reason for that? I am going to attack your point of view, because i disagree. And you didn't have to check out where I am from, it says right there in my signature .
    Anyway, i am fully aware that the America made a treaty with the CIA installed government, and that is exactly my point. So it's OK to have a nuclear program, as long as you are on "our" side. Why is not OK now? Well, simply, 'cause we don't like you anymore. What kind of a threat is Iran actually? Have they attacked anyone? I will ask again - why wasn't Israel attacked or put under sanctions when they were developing their nukes? What makes Israel better than Iran?

    and I promise you the SECOND Iran were to get a nuke they'd use it first against Israel, then against American troops in Iraq
    You promise?
    And i promise you they won't. What do you think they are? A bunch of lunatics? So they talk a lot, does that mean they will risk the destruction and annihilation of their people? George Bush talks a lot more, and acts, unfortunately.

    The definition of terror is not "strapping the bomb around your waist and killing civilians", it's spreading terror, terrorizing people in every way, and Israel has been doing that to the Palestinians for some time now. They kicked out the Palestinians from their homes, from their land, and now they just want to be left alone? :
    That's kinda funny, really, it is .






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