Question on Pezhetairoi!

[Phalanx300]

Looking at the recruitment viewer, it appears that they are only recruitable form Macedonian heartland, Alexandria, Babylon and Seleukeia and onther Seleucid city. And then when I look at the Elite Phalanx, they are recruitable in more cities, why is this?:hmmm: It seems to me that it should be turned around?

[Foot]

Pezhetairoi are drawn from the Makedonians with voting rights (or citizen rights, or whatever, I cannot remember) and that is why they are only available in these cities. The elite phalanx does not have this limitation.

Foot

[Phalanx300]

Ok thanks for the explaination .

[Spartan 666]

but...to be an elite phalangite, you don't have to be a citizen first and foremost? i mean...the "standard" phalanx made up with the citizens and the elite phalanx made up with everything?

[Foot]

What did I just say?

Don't make any judgements about the unit from the english names. These were done hurriedly and badly and do not in anyway represent the social standing of the soldiers.

Pezhetairoi are literally "foot companions" and come from the richest families of the faction. That doesn't mean they are absolutely the best soldiers out there.

Foot

[Charging_Knight]

Foot you just made a muddled confused answer...Sorry dude, just doesnt work.

[johnhughthom]

Made complete sense to me...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Short answer is: Medium quality soldiers live in less places. High quality soldiers live in more places, but probably in less quantities.

This is due to the fact that they are not the same class of society. Pezhetairoi are only the highest class, but the highest class is not the very best soldiers. Silver Shields have more classes in their ranks (though, keep in mind that elites are different things to the Seleukids vs. the Makedonians).

[Foot]

Foot you just made a muddled confused answer...Sorry dude, just doesnt work.

And you have in no way explained why it doesn't work. At least I can give an answer, you just seem to annoy.

Okay, how about this. The Pezhetairoi was a unit composed of close friends to the monarch and rich families who wanted their sons to look good with a military career without actually having to do much in the way of combat. They were the companions of their king, rich but spoiled. A procession unit at best, they were in no way as capable as those formations that were drawn upon as the main backbone of a phalanx army, ie those who were at a high level of training.

If that doesn't make sense, I suggest you do slightly more than just say "Sorry dude, just doesn't work".

Foot

[starXdiaMoo]

Sorry Foot, but I don't seem to understand this as well. How come Alexander used his Foot Companions so extensively in his campaigns, while you say they didn't have to do much in combat? And spoiled? No, I certainly don't think so. Anywhere I've read about them they are presented as highly-trained and vigorous soldiers drawn from noble families. Being rich ensured the equipement and enough time to spend in military training, as such these guys can't have been just soft and spoiled. And the backbone of Macedonian armies where the Foot Companions, at least during Alexander's time.

[Foot]

Sorry Foot, but I don't seem to understand this as well. How come Alexander used his Foot Companions so extensively in his campaigns, while you say they didn't have to do much in combat? And spoiled? No, I certainly don't think so. Anywhere I've read about them they are presented as highly-trained and vigorous soldiers drawn from noble families. Being rich ensured the equipement and enough time to spend in military training, as such these guys can't have been just soft and spoiled. And the backbone of Macedonian armies where the Foot Companions, at least during Alexander's time.

Hmm, are we talking about the military of Alexander or of the successor states? I'm sorry, I was confused.

The successor states didn't need to draw upon their core hellenic citizens from the great cities of their empire when they had innumerable numbers of military settlers from which they could draw far larger numbers of troops.

This is the case, though I'm sure someone with better knowledge of these things can put forward a better explanation.

Foot

[starXdiaMoo]

Doesn't matter. Pezhetairoi remained the same force, what you are talking about are the Klerouchoi.

[abou]

Things are a bit wacky with phalangite recruitment if you aren't entirely familiar with them. This is how it works.

- The klerouchoi are the military reservists and settlers and you can find them pretty much anywhere.

- The pezhetairoi (as far as the Seleukids and Ptolemaoi are concerned) are not represented as the pezhetairoi of Alexander. These men are full-time soldiers; not reservists being called up. As such, they are recruitable in certain regions because those regions were military centers. In all honesty, the name isn't the most apt and will probably be changed in EB2.

The argyraspides have a larger recruitment area than the pezhetairoi because their source of manpower is not from the pezhetairoi, but from the klerouchoi. The argyraspides are sons of military settlers serving mandatory service in the military.

That is a quick rundown of how it works, but if you need anything clarified let me know.

[Anakuj]

Things are a bit wacky with phalangite recruitment if you aren't entirely familiar with them. This is how it works.

- The klerouchoi are the military reservists and settlers and you can find them pretty much anywhere.

- The pezhetairoi (as far as the Seleukids and Ptolemaoi are concerned) are not represented as the pezhetairoi of Alexander. These men are full-time soldiers; not reservists being called up. As such, they are recruitable in certain regions because those regions were military centers. In all honesty, the name isn't the most apt and will probably be changed in EB2.

The argyraspides have a larger recruitment area than the pezhetairoi because their source of manpower is not from the pezhetairoi, but from the klerouchoi. The argyraspides are sons of military settlers serving mandatory service in the military.

That is a quick rundown of how it works, but if you need anything clarified let me know.

Your summary is clear for me, but I have some additional questions about the successor military; I just didn't want to open a new thread for this questions, so I ask them here.

1.: Who were the Pantodapoi Phalangitai? How were they selected? Every sons of Asia could join in the ranks of this unit, or just the inhabitants of the more hellenized regions? Were they used extensively, or just the Machimoi 'version' of this unit in Egypt? Who were the provider of their equipment? Did they fight for land grant, or money, or just because they had to? Were in their ranks some hellenes? How long was their service?

2.: Who can be a Klerouchos Phalangites? I mean just greeks and makedones, or thraikians, or some other nations, like jews? And if - more or less hellenized - easterners can join in the ranks of this unit in times of need, why were established the Pantodapoi phalanx? Who decided that a say ionian (or makedon, or other hellen) who just came into Egypt or Syria or Baktria will be Pezhetairos or Kleroukhos? - in my opinion, a professional(Pezhetairoi) army is always better, than a reservist, so what is the maintain reason of this unit? How long was their service? If they were good warriors, could they become Pezhetairoi? Who were the provider of their equipment? I know they got land grants for their services - did they get it for lifetime? Was that land inheritable?

3.: So than who were exactly the Pezhetairoi? If they weren't the makedones of Alexander, than who were they - some kind of lesser nobels, or what, and with what origins? And what happened with the Alexandrian makedones than? Did they get back to Makedonia? I know that Alexander settled many thausands of greeks in all Asia, and after his death they rebelled, but were defeated, by the loyal makedonians and were send back to the East. But they are just Kleroukhoi - according to the RecViewer. How long was their service? Who were the provider of their equipment?

4.: Who can be an Argyraspides? Just the young Kleruchoi? - the young pezhetairoi, the upper class with voting rights can't join in the legendary elite guard? How long was their mandatory service? And after that? Who were the provider of their equipment?

5.: Who were the legendary Asthetairoi? And what is the difference between the Seleucid/Ptolemaic and Makedonian armys?

6.: At the end I would like to get some information about the real (approximate) number of the east hellenes, because I would like to know that, for example the Arche Seleukeia or the Ptolemaioi how many hellene soldiers could raise - far from Hellas. I have read that in Battle of Magnesia there were 10.000 Argyraspidai phalangites and 16.000 other phalangites (Pezhetairoi or Kleruchoi I don't know), 6000 Kataphraktes and about 2-3.000 Hetairio or other medium cavalry. So if we count the Argyraspidai + other phalangits and ~ 4.000 cavalry as hellene (30.000 total), is it - approximately - correct? So what is the theoretical greek (and the (hellenized) galatian, judean and thracian) soldier capacity of the eastern hellene states?

I would like to know the ~ real numbers too, because I would like to build my army similar to the real one in my new EB campaigns. I just can't think that there were many-many thousands of hellene soldiers, so i have to be frugal with my men!

If You will be so kind as to answer my questions, I will be the happyest man in this boards!!! THANK YOU!

[abou]

I'm sorry, but that is a lot to answer. That is a lot to answer. If you can give me something more focused, then I can help you out, but you've basically asked about the contents of an entire book.

If I were you, I would take a look at Bar-Kochva's book The Seleucid Army: Organisation and Tactics in the Great Campaigns, which should answer most, if not all, of your questions.

[Giuliano Taverna]

I have a question of my own. The elite Helen infantry, (specifically units composed primarily of rich Greco-Macedonian landowners.) Did they have a good, or bad combat reputation? Specifically, I am interesting in their moral, and ferocity.

I am undecided, based on what I know, rich nobles have a tendency to be either impetuous brave and fierce, or cowardly spoiled and meek.

Since Hellenic culture strongly emphasizes gymnastics, I would assume they would be fairly built compared to your average Egyptian or Asiatic peasant. However, living on the edge of subsistence has a certain tendency to produce tough men. I guess it comes down to the question, who was the most loyal on average?

[Ender Wiggin]

It's worth pointing out that Makedonian reformed phalangites, which rock, can be recruited in all the pez places and all the agyra places, and so much more!