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Thread: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

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  1. #1

    Default What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Medieval Total War 2 was no doubt a very good game. But it never got me stuck to the pc as much as the first Medieval Total War did, and it never made me feel that those two games had much to do with each other. This happened for a number of reasons, which mostly show that its designers lost touch with the essence, and focused more on the graphics and other superficial things like voices.

    1. Unit Roster

    In MTW2 there was a roster of units that functioned similarly with units of other factions, but had a bit of a different name/character. The way they were produced was also problematic, because with the HRE for instance you could field swordsmen (their anti-spearmen unit) much much later than the Danes could field huscarls (start of the game), and therefore, in infantry battles (such as castle assaults) you were forced to play with spearmen. In reality, is it so hard to just give a guy a sword or an axe? They could at least have some poor sword/axe units, but the designers decided that they wanted the game to be stupidly arcade. In MTW though, everybody had almost the same units, with very few 'special' units, so you could really design your armies and your strategies according to what tactics you wanted to use, not based on the 2 different units your castle has decided to be producing.

    2. Mercenaries

    Mercenary recruitment became a hoax. There were heavy spearmen and crossbowmen everywhere, waiting for you to recruit them! In MTW however, the idea with the inns was surely more realistic, having as mercenaries the disbanded soldiers. Not totally realistic, but surely more, and it gave the game another atmosphere, with roaming mercenaries in search of employment. Plus it wasn't so easy to recruit them as in MTW2, where you go to your enemy's capital, and all of a sudden you appear with 6 heavy spearmen and 4 crossbowmen extra (a whole bloody army), because you had enough cash, as if all those soldiers were just wandering around in search for an invading army to recruit them on spot. In MTW, where things were more realistic, you couldn't produce troops in any way if you didn't have some kind of infrastructure, such as an inn or barracks. If you ended up with 20 Byzantine Infantrymen in the desert surrounded by enemy regions that produced troops, you were screwed. As it should be realistically.

    3. Chivalry/Dread

    A good idea, but implemented in the wrong way. I simply believe that it is possible that your men will love you and your enemies will fear you, and there are examples of that such as Alexander the Great. However, in the game, this was not possible. You would either be feared by everyone (dread) or loved by everyone (chivalry).

    4. Useless Castles

    Castles in MTW were almost impregnable barriers, and you didn't stand much of a chance to take an upgraded one if you didn't bring siege machinery. In MTW2 however, castles became just a set of walls, that eventually fire an arrow or two. For some strange universal law no soldier was allowed anymore to pour burning oil onto the attackers, no cannon or trebuchet could be mounted on the walls, and the ones that were 'hidden inside towers' could only fire at siege equipment and not troops... No gunpowder defences, nothing to create the mayhem and destruction that the previous castles did. This is an area where they could focus a bit more and do some serious work.

    5. Battle Mechanics

    In MTW you knew that the stats (attack, defence, armour etc) corresponded perfectly to the value of the unit. In MTW2 they tried to make it more complex, with shiled bonuses, defence bonuses, armour bonuses, all from different directions, and mixing attack skill with the attack animations, and from all this came a buggy mess of units whose stats don't mean anything anymore. Seeing the stats, armoured swordsmen should easily kill highlanders. Send them against a group of highlanders and watch them turning to dust. Not to mention the disgrace of two handed weapon wielders...

    6. Voices & Animations

    MTW had an atmosphere, and big part of that was because it didn't have any funny voices and ridiculous strategy map animations. Goofy Germans calling themselves 'dummkopf', rebels swearing at you once the cursor passes over them, and of course many mistakes like choosing your king and him responding 'my king!'. In some cases silence is gold, and comic relief has a point when it is a comic relief, short and very scarce, not an annoying and constant repetition of silly phrases. Oh, plus there should be an option to execute the 'battle advisor' who appeared in Rome and MTW2 and keeps screaming that you should hunt the enemies and run them down in the voice of a maniac...

    There were additions that I like in MTW2, such as apart from the superior graphics, the broader use of princesses and the fair system of trade income, but I do believe that if they had based MTW2 on MTW and had just improved that already existing masterpiece, the result would be many times better than what it finally was.
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  2. #2
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Yeah none of those except #5 is a negative for me.


    Especially #6. Think of the pre-battle speeches man, think of the speeches!
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

  3. #3
    Old Geezer's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Yes, but now we have Princesses. Wouldn't anyone, but me, rather have Princesses instead of Berserkers?

  4. #4
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    I do not have such remorse. I started with Shogun and now M2TW Gold Edition. What I do not know I do not miss. My buddy has MTW and RTW, so I suppose I will eventually give them a try.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    i hated the loss of the feel of MTW. it was so dark and fearful. ("this is an age of darkness, an age of...fear")
    --- Theseus1234
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  6. #6

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    ^^ Definitely get RTW and some quality mods for it!

    I guess I could list some things too...
    1. M2TW has horrid,horrid copy protection.
    2. I think M1TW was much more "Darker" than M2TW and the revolt/civil war system in M1TW was really great and sustained some challenge even after your empire grew really large. Oh, and the hand-drawn event pics were kickass .
    3. I don't know if it's the fact that I was a kid when I played M1TW but I recall it being a hell lot harder than M2TW.
    Example included :
    I'm playing Danes and having just conquered Sweden and Norway from rebels I turn myself against HRE. After a few battles I take Hamburg, start building my economy and... Boom, a force of 7000+ Moors come into Hamburg, in the early game .
    Last edited by Cmdr_Sdxo; July 04, 2008 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #7
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    One thing I really do miss from MTW were the beautiful CGI troop information scrolls.

    In in game pics of the unit on the scroll just isn't the same.


    3. I don't know if it's the fact that I was a kid when I played M1TW but I recall it being a hell lot harder than M2TW.
    Example included :
    'm playing Danes and having just conquered Sweden and Norway from rebels I turn myself against HRE. After a few battles I take Hamburg, start building my economy and... Boom, a force of 7000+ Moors come into Hamburg, in the early game .
    Yeah, that's a product of the simpler risk-style campaign map. The AI didn't have to worry about keeping his armies together in stacks, it just moved them from his province to your province and they automatically attacked.
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

  8. #8
    Guderian's Duck's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    You know, I've only played Shogun, Rome, and now Medieval 2. I always assumed Medieval 2 was an improvement upon the first Medieval--but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps, there is a mod to be made here yes?
    The Jagdpanzer IV was a tank destroyer developed against the wishes of Heinz Guderian. Its large gun and heavy frontal armor led to poor mobility and made them difficult to operate in rough terrain, leading their crews to nickname them Guderian Ente; Guderian's Duck.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Guderian Ente View Post
    You know, I've only played Shogun, Rome, and now Medieval 2. I always assumed Medieval 2 was an improvement upon the first Medieval--but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps, there is a mod to be made here yes?
    I wish there was a mod that reverted things back to the first Medieval, and perhaps just kept a couple of nice things from the new one. Actually I recall that there was a mod, being called something like 'Medieval Classic', but the guy who was making it left it unfinished and disappeared.

    The astounding thing is that there are so many mods on Medieval 2, and everybody just tries to make flashy units, to change the general traits system and other unecessary additions, when we already know so many things that could have been made better (because we have played the first Medieval) and could work on those.

    It bugs me that I'm inept at modding...
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  10. #10
    Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    What went wrong?
    Two words! Fortitude valley

    Also the op never mentioned the new improved AI
    I used to believe it was an improvement but even after 2 patches I still see them sitting still while being pounded from every conceivable direction. Also the very worst! I have never seen M2TW AI retreat unless routing.
    -------------------------
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  11. #11

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    I have never seen M2TW AI retreat unless routing.
    no you're wrong there. i've seen the AI withdraw many times. i know this because the shout "withdraw! withdraw!" as they run and i cut them down. its usually when they somehow know they're all gonna die
    --- Theseus1234
    Suum cique (To each their own) -Motto of the Kingdom of Prussia

    The Crown of Aragon AAR- The Iberian Supremacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    My opinion is 100% objective. That's how I'm so right all the time.
    ^Human hubris knows no bounds.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    Also the very worst! I have never seen M2TW AI retreat unless routing.
    Oh, I've seen M2TW A.I retreating without routing alright!

    Yeah, a cirka 40 strong Mongol bodyguard retreating from the field(not siege) when they "attacked" my 23 Balkan archers. All the mongols did was
    A: Ride calmly to the range of my missiles.
    B: Sit in place for a few minutes while taking missile showers(both flaming and standard). They didn't even take any losses .
    C: Yell "retreat!", obviously thinking they couldn't run down my ragtag band of filthy bandit archers

    [\offtopic]

    Anyway, what I forgot to add :

    "Unique" troop regions. I don't know if there's a system like this in M2TW mods, but in MTW you couldn't for example recruit Nubian Spearmen or Abyssian guards from anywhere but africa. And if you captured Switzerland, you gained access to the Swiss Halbardiers as recruitable units(and Wales-->Longbowmen! , certain eastern european regions-->woodsmen) . That's a minor issue, but to me it was a nice touch. This is a bit noobish question but I just can't be bothered to launch M2TW to check it : Can you recruit camel gunners and other camel mounted units from Icy Norway or the frozen wastelands of northern Siberia? Yeah.

  13. #13
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    I have seen the enemy withdraw in an orderly fashion dozens of times.

    It's usually if I attack one of their armies, and another of their armies is close enough to be sucked in to the battle, if I cause enough damage to the first army and the other army has no chance of winning, they will sometimes just retreat.

    Sometimes I'll send my cavalry after the withdrawing army to try and stall them until my main force can catch them, other times I'll just let them go if I'm still busy with the first army.
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

  14. #14
    Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    ^Your right. I do recall a reinforcing enemy army disappearing suddenly.
    -------------------------
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  15. #15
    D.B. Cooper's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    The AI is smart for me on medium. There's been times I tried to surround an enemy within a city by riding my cavalry to the streets leading to rear of the city plaza, but the AI will send a few units blocking my path. And I've also had the AI simply bolt plenty of times. For example, If they're outnumbered to begin with, and I start the battle with a few volleys of arrows or artillery fire upon their ranks, they'll just shout out "Run for your lives!" and run away. Exasperating, but smart.


  16. #16

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Don't forget the royal family system. Once you had to worry about heirs, and the right one always became king. Now it's practically impossible to die out and succession flies from one side of the family tree to the other.

  17. #17
    Ex Tenebris Lux's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    I enjoy MTW and M2TW seperately for what they are. Though I do wish they carried over from MTW the ability to assassinate your own faction members.

  18. #18

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    Most of what you said, I do not agree with. Specifically this, from point number one:
    In MTW though, everybody had almost the same units, with very few 'special' units, so you could really design your armies and your strategies according to what tactics you wanted to use, not based on the 2 different units your castle has decided to be producing.
    You are saying that factions having the same units, but colored differently, is superior to unique and more historical units found in M2TW. M2 has enough similar units per faction, the unique units is what makes playing one faction different from the other! You adopt your tactics based on what you have, exploiting advantages that your own units bring and countering your opponents. Two, identical armies going at each other is just silly, and while it worked (however many years ago MTW came out), it would not work for modern Total War gamers who expect, and welcome, variety in their troop/faction selections.

  19. #19

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    well mtwII has amazing grafics but if just they spent more time on ai the campaign, when i played mtw I I loved it and when rtw came out oh whell i loved it even more, mtwII is a good game that needed some more work with it

    example the vanila units of byzantium the lower units such as militia archers they look very ugly. The ai sucks, withouth the patches and mods, the vanila campaign textures lack color dinamism.

    Just to say without the mods that have been made mtwII would be a good game but not an exelent game.

  20. #20

    Default Re: What went wrong from MTW to MTW2

    I agree on 4, But disagree on 5. You do bad things, your evil. You do good things, your loved.

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