Flaws of cathlocism?

[The Colonel]

Im a christian, and i have seen any forms of christianity out there, the most interesting to me is cathlosicm. But, according to my own personal findings, catholicism violates several rules of god, the main one being in the ten commandments, not to worship anyone but god himself. If this is true, then why do catholics worship and sometimes pray to "saints":hmmm:. is this not wrong, and if it is not wrong, what justifies it? Any other pro's and con's about catholicism are open too. My own fact finding and research has come up with alot of dead ends.

[kev-o]

First flaw would be your spelling of Catholicism.

But no, I understand where you are coming from. I went to Catholic schools all my life and couldn't get this as well. Basically, Catholics view it this way: they pray to the saints asking the saints to pray for them or someone else. The saints act as an intermediary between the person praying and God.

[The Colonel]

Sorry about my spelling. But how can the saints act as an intermediary is they lived and died like the rest of us did? i have once recieved something in the mail, it was an idol of a saint (idol which we are told not to worship), i dont remember who, but it came with instructions, saying that this particular sain was the saint to selling-homes, and came with a ritual that involved buring the idol, etc. in order to sell my home faster. Does that not seem paganistic?

[kev-o]

Sorry about my spelling. But how can the saints act as an intermediary is they lived and died like the rest of us did? i have once recieved something in the mail, it was an idol of a saint (idol which we are told not to worship), i dont remember who, but it came with instructions, saying that this particular sain was the saint to selling-homes, and came with a ritual that involved buring the idol, etc. in order to sell my home faster. Does that not seem paganistic?

Well I'm not Catholic so I can't really answer all this aside from what I was told. I'm Lutheran so I don't believe in praying to Saints. Or Mary for that matter.

As for the paganistic aspect, this can be seen in history. When Catholics spread their religion to other cultures who practiced paganism, the pagans gradually converted. Their old gods basically became the saints. Go to Mexico and they have a saint for everything. Even the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a Christian version of a pagan story.

[boofhead]

Having been raised as a Protestant I find it hard to understand praying to 'saints' also. I mean, they're dead, and mre human, anyway. I also find the whole 'Pope' thing and apostolic succession to be completely unbiblical, but I would by no means, ever, claim that Catholics are somehow unChristian. They are without doubt the strongest church in the entire world.

[kev-o]

I have a friend who is Lutheran in College who flat out told me the Pope is an Anti-Christ. I sat there for a minute and laughed my ass off. He gave me a look like "dude its true." He wasn't joking.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Coming from a Catholic:

1. The untimely collection plate

2. The BS dogma

3. Pedophiles getting to become priests. Honestly, just crack down please, it's embarassing.

4. Various historical things such as crusades and indolences.

5. If it prompts people to literally interpret the bible.

6. The supression of free thinking

There are some good aspects of the church, however, such as Catholic relief services.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Catholicism is full of crazy ideas... (sorry my Catholic forum-goers!)

I have a friend who is Lutheran in College who flat out told me the Pope is an Anti-Christ. I sat there for a minute and laughed my ass off. He gave me a look like "dude its true." He wasn't joking.

Many people have thought the Pope was Antichrist. He definately fits the bill quite well if you look a the prophecies. The only other alternative would be the Roman Emperor really...

[Dayman]

Catholicism is full of crazy ideas... (sorry my Catholic forum-goers!)

[Dracula]

Since the Catholic Church explicitly underlines that it doesn't bow to the images of god and saints themselves but revers the abstract divinity by this,which cannot be found in anything material- it must be clear that there is no idolatry. I can bow to somebody greeting him in a bit old fashioned way and it isn't idolatry too. It is a dogmatic idiocy of protestantism to see idolatry everywhere.

As for the saints ,I don't find why we shouldn't pray to them ,it isn't said anywhere. Paul writes that we should pray for one another. In the christian tradition the dead christians who had a good life have not perished but still part of the community,and they are even more powerfull with their prayors being closer by mind and soul to god like friends. So they pray like the alive. Anyway since all will resurrect one day that difference(alive-dead) is tiny on the plain of faith striving for eternity.

[The Colonel]

but where in the bible does it say we SHOULD pray to the saints, where does it say that we need a pope? where does it say that he is the most holy man, and that he talks to god? Where does it say confess to your priest, i understand confessing to god, but a man? I dont think we should go outside of the bible when it comes to making a church, and a strict adherence to it is definitely required. Can anyone come out with quotes from the bible that proves most catholic ideologies? I respect the catholics, i just want a better understanding of them in a philisophical point of view, and why does it seem that they go outside the bible for most of their practices.

[Dracula]

"go and the priests will pray for you" somewhere in the deeds of the apostles.

Anyway,Bible=book. The thought is always richer than the expressed in a book. A book is approximately notes to recollect etc. Sometimes it even does not cover all important stuff. "The riches of the grace" is what counts. In fact the fathers of the church made the biblical books dogmaticly excusive. Funnily the protestants went beyond that denouncing the authority of the fathers and made it more dogmatic than it was

[Justus]

but where in the bible does it say we SHOULD pray to the saints, where does it say that we need a pope? where does it say that he is the most holy man, and that he talks to god? Where does it say confess to your priest, i understand confessing to god, but a man? I dont think we should go outside of the bible when it comes to making a church, and a strict adherence to it is definitely required. Can anyone come out with quotes from the bible that proves most catholic ideologies? I respect the catholics, i just want a better understanding of them in a philisophical point of view, and why does it seem that they go outside the bible for most of their practices.

We aren't limited to the bible,we are guided by the Holy Spirit and Christ accompinies(spelling...).The pope is like the prime minister in the Kingdom of David,having a pope isn't a neccesity for catholics.He is holy as every
monk,priest,bishop,cardinal he's just highter ranking and at the front.We say or sins(not in detail but which commandment we broke) and he preaches to us and by the power of Christ/god forgives us.the bible is a compilation of books for believers and holds teachings that we must obey,it seems to protestans and eastern orthodox everything outside the bible is a lie.the saints can't be our idols as God is most important to us,they are role moddels and we don't hide that some of them were most foul before comming to the faith.
P.S.we very much love the bible and you can hear the whole if you go to church daily(yes we hold mass daily 2-3 times)
P.S.S.about the pope being the antichrist,is he saying that all popes are satanists or just a couple of them?We call those antipopes that deny something important.
P.S.S.I think that the next pope(anipope) will be the antichrist actually

[kev-o]

Coming from a Catholic:

1. The untimely collection plate

2. The BS dogma

3. Pedophiles getting to become priests. Honestly, just crack down please, it's embarassing.

4. Various historical things such as crusades and indolences.

5. If it prompts people to literally interpret the bible.

6. The supression of free thinking

I think what the OP is asking is flaws in its Theology not in what you think of it.

[The Colonel]

the bible is more than a book, it's like a rule book, a code that we as christians should live by. Should we not at least try strictly adhere to it?

[Dracula]

the bible is more than a book, it's like a rule book, a code that we as christians should live by. Should we not at least try strictly adhere to it?

Yes we have to. But also mind in the antiquity everything was spread orally,by orall tradition. Christ didn't send his disciples to teach the Bible or NT but "Go and teach all people baptizing them in the name of the Father,Son and H.Spirit !" (NT). Meaning they got his meassage orally and its boundaries were layed by the communion with God,not by something like a codex or rules. That is how they started preaching it for 50 years. Then you got the Bible as last as the 4th century at a Council in Nicaea I think. In the true church the guarantee for the teaching was that the disciples know each oother personally and they are all in divine communion with god,it's something "in the church",not objective.

[The Colonel]

i truly respect the saints, and i do not place any doubt that they were not deserving of the titles, i however do doubt their "divinity" that seems to be placed on them by catholics, and from the outside, one can see what most catholic practices in the regards of saints is worship (thats why we have protestants today.) The statement that we are guided by the holy spirit and christ is a compelling argument and i agree that yes, we are guided by it. By still what is the neccesity of confession, why do we need the pope or the clergy or whatever to get into heaven, why did catholics add books to the bible, and who came up with purgatory in the first place?

[Justus]

i truly respect the saints, and i do not place any doubt that they were not deserving of the titles, i however do doubt their "divinity" that seems to be placed on them by catholics, and from the outside, one can see what most catholic practices in the regards of saints is worship (thats why we have protestants today.) The statement that we are guided by the holy spirit and christ is a compelling argument and i agree that yes, we are guided by it. By still what is the neccesity of confession, why do we need the pope or the clergy or whatever to get into heaven, why did catholics add books to the bible, and who came up with purgatory in the first place?

the saints appeared after their death and Marry has worked a lot of miracles.
We confess that we do not hide our sins any longer,that the priest can help the community(that he would know your problem).The pope and cardinals are to keep the church united and guide(divide and conquer,that's how the devil works).We get to heaven by faith and works,if you are worthy of heaven but not have confessed some sin you go to purgatory to pay for what you did and then go to heaven cleansed(getting to heaven isn't easy in the catholic view).Bokks are added if they are inspired by God

P.S.watch this video it will be interesting to you as a christian and you will learn somethin about catholicism too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZMbXDopB8 (watch all the parts)
P.S.S.and this is an audio about what the bible teaches about the pope http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/audio/papacy.mp3

[The Colonel]

ok, im understanding better now, but is there a reference in the bible to purgatory?

[Justus]

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)