Archers/Crossbows etc. underpowered?

[Barser]

(Here we go again)
Well I am tired of my archers only killing 30-50 units in a battle even if they use all there arrows and have a clear shot.
And x-bows and gunpowder is even far worse!

(I know I could install raj but I only want missile units to do more damage and not mess with anything else)

What about giving:
archers +2-4 (depending on unit type)
Crossbow +3-6 (since they have such a lousy firing arc they need a huge boost)
gunpowder + 4-8!

would this be to owerpowered?

What do you guys think? Should the next realese have a huge boost to damage or is it just me that liked the damage output better in vanilla?

[MoToM]

Chimerias RAJ (Realistic Archery and Javelins) does just that, makes archers work again.

[LuiSius_ScutaRuS]

I find archers and crossbows as an essential part on the game.

They have helped me a lot, I don't know why are you saying that!!! lol

However on the vanilla game, gunpowder units were way too weak. I haven't seen them yet in my actual SS campaign though...

[Barser]

I find archers and crossbows as an essential part on the game.

They have helped me a lot, I don't know why are you saying that!!! lol

Of course they are I just find them rather weak. The damange for ss have been lowered by half.

[PlanetEx]

Of course they are I just find them rather weak. The damange for ss have been lowered by half.

But every unit recieved lower attacking stats to make the game last longer. So I don't think they are really underpowered, they are just like all the other units.

On the gameplay side, I think, that it was an improvement. If you, as the player are always able to kill of 1 whole 2000+ army just only with your range unites, the game is just boring. Maybe realistic....but boring.

[LuiSius_ScutaRuS]

Yeah, it's true and by doing that we get longer and more interesting battles.

However, you know you can change that manually, on the SS/data folder, look for the 'export_descr_unit' file and edit the ammount of damage done by any unit, and with a bit of pacience, you could make lots of chances.

I remember in RTW, I've added 1 hitpoint to every unit on the game, the result = 40mins battles, but I took it off soon after, you need to pay attention, you could make the game unbalanced

[Barser]

Well I know how to edit it I would just like to hear how you guys felt about it.
Seem like i'm the only one complaining.

I'ts just that I am playing as turks right now and my horser archers don't really kill anything unless they go into melee.

I know that they lowered the attack's for melee to make the battle last longer and I like it. But the archers... well they don't kill enough with lowered attacks.
Especialy horse archers

Though x-bows and gunpowder units is the ones that needs a boost the most.

[themoob]

The latest versions of RR fix archers too.

[Barser]

The latest versions of RR fix archers too.

To bad I don't use that mod. What does it fix? damage output?

[PlanetEx]

Ok, but I think, if this need to be fixed, it should be included into a new patch. The user should have the same results with the original SS game,with RR or without. RR should be just used for the recruitment factor not for the balancing.

I hope that 6.2 will change that. Although I have to say, that I don't miss anything in the archers I use now. They do the damage I expect. I don't care that much for stats.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

There is big problem. Mehanic do not work. Go to thread

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...162997&page=42

[aion2006]

Barser are you looking for something like:

-All missile unit has low ammo but does large damage. (<--for balance, 20 ish volley?)

-Bow= Miss often but does dam on impact

-Crossbow = Long reload time, accurate, armor piercing large damage.
(cannot arc shot as well as bowman unit)

-Javalin = short range, worst accuracy, large dam on impact.

-bullet = Long reload time, accurate, armor piercing, large damage

I also think horse archer should have short range if they are able to inflict large damage. This is to ensure balance. As the defender has a chance to fend off the fast mover.

Edit: There's been many discussion on the balance of range unit. Mostly because its funny seeing armor knight or Gothic knight get killed by arrows. (Hit in the visor?)
Like many would say, archer was to annoy or slow down the enemies.

[Barser]

Barser are you looking for something like:

-All missile unit has low ammo but does large damage. (<--for balance, 20 ish volley?)

-Bow= Miss often but does dam on impact

-Crossbow = Long reload time, accurate, armor piercing large damage.
(cannot arc shot as well as bowman unit)

-Javalin = short range, worst accuracy, large dam on impact.

-bullet = Long reload time, accurate, armor piercing, large damage

I also think horse archer should have short range if they are able to inflict large damage. This is to ensure balance. As the defender has a chance to fend off the fast mover.

Edit: There's been many discussion on the balance of range unit. Mostly because its funny seeing armor knight or Gothic knight get killed by arrows. (Hit in the visor?)
Like many would say, archer was to annoy or slow down the enemies.

Hmm yeah something like that. That would be raj right?
The most important fix for ballance right now is of course crossbows and gunpowder.

But seeing my units fire wave after wave of arrows only to see the militias they where firing at laughing at me wanted the old damage from vanilla back.

I just think I might be happyer with playing ss if I modified my edu with the above changes.


"Try starting a campaign as genoa without rr or raj and watch your self go crazy at how useless yor crossbowmen are. I did that yesterday and switched to a turkish campaign only to get mad at the horse archers"

[FriendoftheDork]

Are we playing the same game? Yes, crossbows are underpowered, and gunpowder units need alot of time and good conditions to get many kills. But most archery units do fine IMO. 30-50 units a battle is what I usually get when the unit still has many arrows yet, which is often alot better than what I get from my melee infantry.

Horse archers etc. using composite bows often rack up kills really fast - in my Kiev game the Kazakz were often the main killers of my army, except of course for my other cavalry (charges are insane).

Peasants archers are weak but I find they often manage about 10 kills per VOLLEY against similar weak and unarmored units.

Crossbows was the most disappointing but if you increase their accuracy they become the real killers they're meant to be - and it's much quicker than giving new stats to all the crossbow units. 2 arbalesters vs 1 armored spearmen managed to halve the unit before it even reach my lines (they didn't start very far off). This is IF you mod it though.

Gunpowder units... may need a fix. Sure, I can get 100+ kills with them under perfect conditions or if they can fire all their ammo, but how often does that happen? I bet increasing their accuracy will work well there as too.

[Gorrrrrn]

From the brief summary of the archaeological report of the graves of some 600 victims of the Battle of Visby - where a peasant army got slaughtered in 1340 by a Danish army, it would appear that less than 25% of the casualties could be accounted for by archery fire.

There were 456 wounds with visible evidence of cutting weapons, such as swords and axes. There were 126 which were from piercing weapons such as arrows, lances and "morning stars" which were a wooden ball studded with metal spikes and attached to a short handle with a chain and these were used against head and shoulders from above. There were also an undisclosed number of crushing injuries by the mace and war hammer. The latter were also often used to finish off the wounded.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.f...docs/visby.htm

Given that the peasants were unlikely to wearing top quality armour, one has to assume that kills by archery fire (as far as one can generalise from a single example!) shouldn't be more than 20% in our battles all other things being equal.

[Shabby_Ronin]

From the brief summary of the archaeological report of the graves of some 600 victims of the Battle of Visby - where a peasant army got slaughtered in 1340 by a Danish army, it would appear that less than 25% of the casualties could be accounted for by archery fire.



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peter.f...docs/visby.htm

Given that the peasants were unlikely to wearing top quality armour, one has to assume that kills by archery fire (as far as one can generalise from a single example!) shouldn't be more than 20% in our battles all other things being equal.

too many variables to make broad assumptions, what was the composition of the army? was there much use of a missle or skirmishing element in the battle?

i can posit safely that its unlikely archers would shoot into the ranks of their own men who are happily engaged in a good ol' fashioned peasant beat down.

the accounts i'v read of the turkish attacks on the crusaders marching to antioch are evidence to support the other position

it should be about implementation, i have no problem using skirmishers with raj, just gotta be nimble

[Mr. Os]

My Cossack Musketeers barely made a dent in the militia army I fought yesterday. Of the 1500 rebel militia army my musketeers only killed 40-50 at ranged (each regiment). Somethings wrong there.

[TWFanatic]

RaJ goes to the other extreme, giving longbowmen and some composite bowmen FOURTEEN ATTACK. You have archers wiping out armies before they even reach your battle lines--it's more like LoTR than actual warfare. In spite of what Hollywood may depict, armor actually worked.

[Staerke]

RaJ goes to the other extreme, giving longbowmen and some composite bowmen FOURTEEN ATTACK. You have archers wiping out armies before they even reach your battle lines--it's more like LoTR than actual warfare. In spite of what Hollywood may depict, armor actually worked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy

Only against the most heavily armored foes are longbows ineffective. Crossbowmen could mow down knights, which is why the Pope banned them.

[Barser]

I tryed giving a small boost to archers yesterday and well some archers like longbows became really owerpowered. But it seemed like a good idea for ha.

Also I gave gunpowder units +5 attack and I didn't really see any difference O_o
But it did help to give crossbows and javalins +4.