Mongols skewered by Pike Militia

[Old Geezer]

In my present Retrofit campaign as the Scots (with pikemen's secondary weapon removed) after repulsing the Mongols who assaulted Antioch 3 times and had 4 full armies destroyed twice and 2 armies the last time, I decided to do something crazy and attacked 2 Mongol field armies (which had trebs and rockets and their Khan) with my king and Scots pike militia and nothing else. I spread the pikemen out in 2-ranks all along the start line with King Roy in the middle behind them. I then just advanced them in a straight line and watched as they lost formation and advanced in a most undisciplined manner. They trashed the first Mongol army and killed the general. They were in such a mess that I had to regroup them. King Roy was of help but I was reluctant to use him much. The second Mongol army soon arrived and the "battle line" was a mess. I finally just grouped all my men that were left (the Mongols had destroyed about 2 units of pike militia) and advanced where most of the Mongols were on a hill. After they lost their Khan and about 80 percent of their men they bolted. No more Mongols. Twelve stacks gone in four battles. Most of the pikemen militia did have 1 or 2 levels of experience and some leather armor. The Mongols didn't seem to have a healthy enough fear of long pointy sticks and just ran their ponies into them or didn't get out of the way. Their infantry archers don't retreat either and try to melee with the pikemen - big mistake. The Mongols seemed to route rather easily too. I thought my pike militia would route much easier. My pike militia must have been more afraid of Dread King Roy than the Mongol Khan.

I was amazed, because, in theory, archers are the perfect answer to pikes. The pikemen advance so fast that I don't think the trebuchets or rockets got any hits at all. The Mongol bodyguards and heavy lancers did the most damage. My Scots lost about 350 men and only one unit got promoted!

I don't think that the pikemen are overly strong as much as the Mongol AI tactics are just very poor. When I attack Flemish pikemen with Feudal knights the knights win but take heavy losses and I can't just charge straight into the pike formation, of course.

[Leutrim]

In my present Retrofit campaign as the Scots (with pikemen's secondary weapon removed) after repulsing the Mongols who assaulted Antioch 3 times and had 4 full armies destroyed twice and 2 armies the last time, I decided to do something crazy and attacked 2 Mongol field armies (which had trebs and rockets and their Khan) with my king and Scots pike militia and nothing else. I spread the pikemen out in 2-ranks all along the start line with King Roy in the middle behind them. I then just advanced them in a straight line and watched as they lost formation and advanced in a most undisciplined manner. They trashed the first Mongol army and killed the general. They were in such a mess that I had to regroup them. King Roy was of help but I was reluctant to use him much. The second Mongol army soon arrived and the "battle line" was a mess. I finally just grouped all my men that were left (the Mongols had destroyed about 2 units of pike militia) and advanced where most of the Mongols were on a hill. After they lost their Khan and about 80 percent of their men they bolted. No more Mongols. Twelve stacks gone in four battles. Most of the pikemen militia did have 1 or 2 levels of experience and some leather armor. The Mongols didn't seem to have a healthy enough fear of long pointy sticks and just ran their ponies into them or didn't get out of the way. Their infantry archers don't retreat either and try to melee with the pikemen - big mistake. The Mongols seemed to route rather easily too. I thought my pike militia would route much easier. My pike militia must have been more afraid of Dread King Roy than the Mongol Khan.

I was amazed, because, in theory, archers are the perfect answer to pikes. The pikemen advance so fast that I don't think the trebuchets or rockets got any hits at all. The Mongol bodyguards and heavy lancers did the most damage. My Scots lost about 350 men and only one unit got promoted!

I don't think that the pikemen are overly strong as much as the Mongol AI tactics are just very poor. When I attack Flemish pikemen with Feudal knights the knights win but take heavy losses and I can't just charge straight into the pike formation, of course.

Duuuuude, thats perfect. I wouldnt dare of used them in open battle thats pretty brave. Im playing as spanish atm and might use pike militia agaisnt the mongols when they arrive at the holy lands.

[Mad Luddite]

It probably has to do with the fact that you disabled their secondary weapons, and now they function as Rome Total War phalanxes, which were pretty much meat grinders to everything.

[Munch]

Is it just me, or in all total war games is the archer AI really, really, REALLY clinically imbecilic (due to me getting reported if I called them retarded, I have chosen to use the politically correct term for retarded)... It's just, in RTW, any possible threats to my phalanx, obviously archers, killed themselves off in seconds by charging the front. I mean archers, why do they even think they are carrying long wooden things called bows that are the phalanxes worst enemy. (Sorry about the rubbish wording). And in M2TW, it seems that (only in a few battles mind,) the archers act as suicide units that deliberately aim to get either kebabed on my pikes, or get well and truly sliced and diced and generally hewn-to-bitesize chunks (that happen to fit well on real kebabs I'll have you know...)by my swordmen, (I think that the infantry animations are awesome in M2TW, like the dudes slicing three times, the other guy getting hacked to pieces and them getting stabbed when on the floor)

Again soz about the poor wording

Sorry about the waste of space this has been, rant over... : )

PS the archers seem to have a) a death wish; b) a life-long-ambision to be terminally inconvenienced in the most idiotic way (terminally inconvenienced being the (again) politically correct term for dead); or just generally completely totally and utterly and completely and entirely, (etc, etc, etc...) -beeeeeeeeping- mad

No really, I'll stop now

Or not

I just can't help it...

Sorry : (

[Ex Tenebris Lux]

effective use of archers is an adventure in micromanagement i've found.

anyway, back to on topic, what IS the scots pike militia's secondary weapon? I haven't played as scotland in any form or fashion yet so...

[Strom]

anyway, back to on topic, what IS the scots pike militia's secondary weapon? I haven't played as scotland in any form or fashion yet so...

They have sharpened butter knives.

In general once they switch from pikes to secondary weapons they aren't much more useful than peasants. The default unit AI has them switching way too early and way too often leading them to lose to frontal charges that they should be good against. Really, in my experience it's better to use crappy spear militia than pikemen.

Note that you can get them to switch back to pikes in mid-battle by toggling the spear wall button but you'll probably lose a few guys doing it.

Removing their secondary weapon 'fixes' this problem but at the cost of making them godlike because there is now no way to get in 'under the pikes' or take them in the rear with cavalry (assuming that the initial charge doesn't rout them)... They just turn around and poke you to death with an overpowered magic pike that ignores the laws of physics.

[Ex Tenebris Lux]

overpowered magic pike that ignores the laws of physics.

[Old Geezer]

Well, I have had success in attacking pikes with heavy cavalry and they are very vulnerable to missile fire. Axe men and swords are almost worthless. However, for some reason Varangian guard can beat pikes in a frontal assault. Pikemen when attacked from the front should be almost impossible for sword or axe unit to beat them - why else is the Forlorn Hope unit called forlorn? Why did the Rennaisance armies consist primarily of pikes?

What I have seen violate the laws of physics more are the few kills that some Danish axemen got on my pikes. The axemen just seem to wave their axes laterally at the spears and never come close to a pikeman's body, but they were still able to kill some. On second thought maybe the pikemen got trampled by their own men or stuck in the buttocks since they didn't have armor.

Their secondary weapon is the famous medieval rubber knife invented by an un-named painter to mix oil paint and, as correctly pointed out by Strom, butter. These were not the entirely rounded butter knives which are now so popular in western socialist countries, but real manly ones with a small point on the end - a truly lethal weapon in the hands of well trained and highly disciplined levy burghers. IIRC, it is all quite well described by Chaucer in one of the Canteberry Tails - or was it the vorpel blade in the Jaberwok?

These lethal butter knives were so highly prized that no acheological trace remains of them - scavengers would remove them from the battlefield and sell them - they were highly prized in the Orient and Marco Polo took 2456 of them with him to Cathay to bribe the Emperor Kubby Kan.