fighting uphill battles

**GandhiTheHun** · July 01, 2008, 05:54 AM

When your enemy takes a foot hold on a massive hill (and i mean massive), ...what do you do? what kind of tactics have you used to negate from the enemies down hill advantage? In a recent battle, i fought macedonian phalanxes in such conditions as Germania. Needless to say, it was a crushing victory, i killed three enemy generals. But i don't really know how, and i don't know if i could have done better. But it seems that even when fighting uphill, the enemy phalanxes are no match for my light infantry. I hate to boast, but i think i am a prodigious military genius...at rome total realism.

I was thinking that because gravity would want to make my troops move away from the enemy spears, they were dying from them less, as opposed to charging on them down a hill. which would make my men run into them.

**Artax** · July 01, 2008, 09:26 AM

I tend not to attack in such places (I'm following Sun Tzu's "Art of War"

), but when I do I usually try to outmaneuver the enemy to such position which is a lot more suitable to me. Once I even managed to change sides with the enemy who held a steep hill. It was fun to see how my troops slaughtered them from the hilltop.

BTW welcome to the forums!

**LeoDowner** · July 01, 2008, 11:28 AM

You can't go wrong if you're at the top of a steep hill really, see my recent post in the Germania faction tactics post.

When moving my armies I always try to position either on a bridge or in the hills/mountains. Gives you a big advantage before you even start the battle.

**LeoDowner** · July 01, 2008, 11:30 AM

Oh you meant the macedonians were at the top :hmmm:

I don't think I've ever fought against phalanxes in that way but I can't imagine it being easy, taking on a phalanx not only from the front but at a steep angle.

**Fight!** · July 01, 2008, 11:40 AM

Uphill advantages i know of...but in a video game? are there any actual advantages of uphill advantages in a video game? And BTW where did you get one of Sun Tzu's books? I've heard of him but never read a book by Sun Tzu

**GandhiTheHun** · July 01, 2008, 11:47 AM

The Art of War by Sun Tzu, its in my book shelf actually. Its available anywhere really, like barns and noble.

"are there any actual advantages of uphill advantages in a video game? "

Um.. yes. They made the game like that. Have you ever played rome total war?

**Artax** · July 01, 2008, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by nicoisbest

Uphill advantages i know of...but in a video game? are there any actual advantages of uphill advantages in a video game?

Yes there is an uphill advantage. Don't know how it technically works within the engine, but it is implemented.

Originally Posted by nicoisbest

And BTW where did you get one of Sun Tzu's books? I've heard of him but never read a book by Sun Tzu

I have an english translation of his works. You can also find his "Art of War" on the net. I've heard that his works are still used in military schools so it's a must-read for a general, even an imaginary one

**Athreios** · July 02, 2008, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by nicoisbest

And BTW where did you get one of Sun Tzu's books? I've heard of him but never read a book by Sun Tzu

Alternatively, you can buy this!

https://www.bengans.se/popup/sabaton...up_mall_se.asp

**Mikail Mengsk** · July 01, 2008, 03:46 PM

I never attack an enemy who is clearly uphill in the strategical map. Sometimes i found during the battle that the enemy had set up his forces uphill, tough.

My tactics depends on which troops the enemy has, and which troops do you have.

Anyway, i usually try to climb the hill quickly, in order to take place in a position where i could minimize the enemy advantage.

If I have archers, i put them on the right/left flank and shoot at the enemy. Sooner or later the enemy would send some troops downhill to engage the archers.

Then i order them to retreat, i assault and destroy the enemy troops and then, with numerical advantage, i assault the rest of the enemy army, always trying to send my best troops against the enemy's units that hold the highest position.

When my elites had got the best position, i order them to charge downhill, and the enemy got crushed.

**Fight!** · July 01, 2008, 05:37 PM

good strategy

**fourganger** · July 01, 2008, 06:33 PM

I once fought an uphill battle against Macedon as Sarmatia. My arrows had very little impact against them, but I managed to lure them off the hill by dangling my General in front of his phalanx. Once their lines were disrupted it was just a matter of getting a few units of Horse Archers up behind them (and therefore raining missiles from an elevated position) and it was all over.

Originally Posted by Artax

I tend not to attack in such places (I'm following Sun Tzu's "Art of War")

I don't think Sun Tzu mentions how no matter how many natural advantages there are, the AI always sucks.

I have no hesitation about attacking uphill. Even with the crazy bonuses the AI gets when you play on difficult, and even with an army composed on heavy pikeman, the AI will still lose, with no great loss of life on my side.

Beating the AI uphill is no great boast. But I've lost a few uphill multiplayer battles, generally because not everyone can be suckered into coming down off the hill.

**Artax** · July 02, 2008, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by fourganger

I don't think Sun Tzu mentions how no matter how many natural advantages there are, the AI always sucks.

He was a lucky one to have not seen the AI of RTW. AI seems to be pretty good described in his works as a bad general and does the mistakes Sun Tzu warns to avoid

Originally Posted by fourganger

I have no hesitation about attacking uphill. Even with the crazy bonuses the AI gets when you play on difficult, and even with an army composed on heavy pikeman, the AI will still lose, with no great loss of life on my side.

Beating the AI uphill is no great boast. But I've lost a few uphill multiplayer battles, generally because not everyone can be suckered into coming down off the hill.

Well it's a matter of preference. I prefer to play defensively so I'm usually the one who waits on a hill top. The composition of the army is also important. It's very tough to defeat such army with Macedonian phalanx, while it's fairly easy if you have the legions or other sword infantry in disposition.

**GandhiTheHun** · July 02, 2008, 01:30 PM

Hmm. i agree. But it literally does not make any sense to me, my light german infantry is holding off full stacks of Macedonian phalanxes head on. Of course, when i hover over my troops it says "defeat is almost certain, only a military genius could win this battle", and of course, i win because i am a military genius. What usually happens is that i have a group of berserkers reserved on both flanks, along with a general unit--i then ride out past the flanks of the enemy and charge the preoccupied phalanx from the side and rear, causing a rout. after that, the infantry that was fighting the phalanx on my flank falls in and attacks and routs the phalanxes on by one down the whole battle line. Its basically an instant victory. I don't understand how my light infantry is holding them off for that long in the first place. Could the javelins that ALL of my infantry throws be scaring the crap out of the phalanxes? I should also mention that i like to put my troops on defensive...

**Jamey** · July 02, 2008, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by GandhiTheHun

Hmm. i agree. But it literally does not make any sense to me, my light german infantry is holding off full stacks of Macedonian phalanxes head on. Of course, when i hover over my troops it says "defeat is almost certain, only a military genius could win this battle", and of course, i win because i am a military genius. What usually happens is that i have a group of berserkers reserved on both flanks, along with a general unit--i then ride out past the flanks of the enemy and charge the preoccupied phalanx from the side and rear, causing a rout. after that, the infantry that was fighting the phalanx on my flank falls in and attacks and routs the phalanxes on by one down the whole battle line. Its basically an instant victory. I don't understand how my light infantry is holding them off for that long in the first place. Could the javelins that ALL of my infantry throws be scaring the crap out of the phalanxes? I should also mention that i like to put my troops on defensive...

Troops on defensive will not 'push' against the phalanx nearly as much as they would if they are not on defensive. Generally, when you meet a pike line and cannot hit the gaps, you want to fight on defensive on the front and flank with anyone you can spare. Remember that many German infantry units (including berserkers) inspire fear in enemy infantry. That explains why you can break the phalanx line relatively easily.

In general, the most important thing in fighting an uphill battle is to avoid running up the hill unless you must. The AI screws itself by running up hills to get to you, resulting in heavily fatigued units. If you rest your hill climbing troops just outside the enemy's missile range to get everyone to Fresh, it's well worth the time spent.

**AqD** · July 02, 2008, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by GandhiTheHun

When your enemy takes a foot hold on a massive hill (and i mean massive), ...what do you do? what kind of tactics have you used to negate from the enemies down hill advantage? In a recent battle, i fought macedonian phalanxes in such conditions as Germania. Needless to say, it was a crushing victory, i killed three enemy generals. But i don't really know how, and i don't know if i could have done better. But it seems that even when fighting uphill, the enemy phalanxes are no match for my light infantry. I hate to boast, but i think i am a prodigious military genius...at rome total realism.

I was thinking that because gravity would want to make my troops move away from the enemy spears, they were dying from them less, as opposed to charging on them down a hill. which would make my men run into them.

The phalanx units are basically broken with Darth's or Sinuhet's AI formations I think. In vanilla AI would make a big line of phalanx and push all of them forward - it's really a wall of pikes! But with Darth's or Sinuhet's they are used just like legionaries/swordsmen, no lines, instead there are big gaps and multiple ranks, and they would support each other - problem is phalanx units cannot run to "support", so eventually this make every units of pikes vulnerable to flanking and rear charge

________
LaCremo

**Mikail Mengsk** · July 03, 2008, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by aqd

The phalanx units are basically broken with Darth's or Sinuhet's AI formations I think. In vanilla AI would make a big line of phalanx and push all of them forward - it's really a wall of pikes! But with Darth's or Sinuhet's they are used just like legionaries/swordsmen, no lines, instead there are big gaps and multiple ranks, and they would support each other - problem is phalanx units cannot run to "support", so eventually this make every units of pikes vulnerable to flanking and rear charge

in my battles the AI usually use them in line formation, supported by sword and heavy infantries on the flanks. II've seen them used as "legionaries" only when i outflank them and the AI tries to regroup and to face my manoeuvers... :hmmm:

**Fight!** · July 02, 2008, 10:09 PM

i got Sun Tzu's book and so far i haven't read anything that plainly talked about hill advantages but i think GhanditheHun and Jamey are using battle tactics similar to what Sun Tzu says you should do on any battles which was 3/5 of your army attack head on and 2/5 flank and other tactical maneuvers which makes a lot of sense