Massalia

[DimeBagHo]

If you have played a Massalia campaign I'd appreciate it if could post a brief account of how things went. In particular I'd like to know whether it was too easy, or too hard, whether anything seemed weird, or if you have ideas for improvements.

I'm already planning to add a Celto-Hellenic Hoplite unit in the next release.

[Deiphobos]

Well, my first attempt was loads of fun, but a complete disaster for the Greeks. As soon as I had a good army organized, Gaul and Spain declared war on me. That was still relatively bearable, but it gave me no room to expand and reorganize, as they were pummelling on me without remorse. Then Rome joined in... and it was over as quickly as it had started... I even tried using the force diplomacy script, but they just came again the next round and betrayed the agreement. And I didn't want to be unfair for too many rounds. Yet, it was fun. Maybe if Emporion would have been included from the beginning, the chances would have been a bit better.

PS: Settings were on M/M if I recall correctly.

[Zarax]

Yes, having both massalia and emporion is vital to survive, otherwise you don't stand a chance.
BTW, do you start allied with both spain and gauls?

[Deiphobos]

As far as I can recall both Spain and Gaul are your allies. Emporion is a rebel settlement. I am wondering if starting with two settlements (Massalia and Emporion) would be against the principal ideas behind such campaigns. If not then I would recommend either weakening Emporion a bit, so it is easy to grab, or making it part of the player's lands.

Btw... I just realised that I might have been able to turn the campaign around. I had the island south of Massalia already in my grasp. I could have counterattacked from there.

[DimeBagHo]

In my test campaigns it was easy enough to take Emporion on the second turn, and then blitz the Carthaginian islands. That seemed like a pretty solid start. Emporion is really the weak link though - it's hard to defend. The islands and Massalia itself are all pretty easy to defend, so it might even make sense to go after the islands first.

[Deiphobos]

Forgive the repetition and the off-topic-iness () of my question, but is it principally wished to have provincial campaigns with only one starting province? Or could we also have provincial campaigns in which the player start with two or more provinces? For example, in an Epirote campaign it would make sense to give Tarentum to the player as well, as it was heavily influenced, or maybe even in parts the island of Sicily, as in 278 he was proclaimed its ruler (well of the Greek cities). Or does provincial campaign mean that you start with only one province?

[Ferrus]

Dimebagho: The game in the long run is pretty hard (m/m) and i have tried it three times now. Its not that I am losing my battles, it is that I am running out of men. Other than the 2nd game, I played for about 40 -60 turns i believe.

Game I:
I took all the islands in the region and Emporion thus initiating a war with carthage. Built one army which had to sail from island to island as the carthaginians counter attack every 1-3 turns. When the gauls and iberians join in, emporion and massilia, my main training grounds, quite literally ran out of men to fill my ranks. And this is with me winning ALL my battles. My general of course became ten star and was a legendary commander but the army was more like a fire brigade putting out fires during a long dry season. In spite, I took carthage and razed it to the ground as my capital was taken by the gauls.

Game II:
Lasted barely 12 turns. I took Aleria as my first target. Rome then decided to land a huge army. Game, set, match, I threw in the towel as my army was trap between a carthiginian army in sardinia (I was attempting to storm the city) and a roman army in corsica

Game III:
I decided for a gallic empire and after taking Emporion, headed north. After the fourth turn the Iberians attacked me in the rear at Emporion and I was fighting a two front war. Of course perserverance and sheer stubborness (not to mention irritation at my lack of success in the previous game) made me play out the rise and fall of the Greeks in this region. I recruited whatever locals i can grab my hands on, supplemented by those from the cities of emporion and massilia and took half of gaul and Iberia before lack of funds, men and... well basically men saw all the cities in occupied territory under siege, my main army was at a quarter strength and my fuse considerably shorten. Actually it is the man power situation that drove me up the wall, there are times when some battles are pricey, but when there is often a battle every 2nd turn it just snowballs.

Possible solutions:
If it is at all possible, can massilia start off a level up with its farm building
A 1000-2000 increase in population
Perhaps A 1000 more denarii for the more cautious players that want to build up instead of blitzing

Already mentioned solutions:
Perhaps starting off with emporion isnt such a bad idea. Wouldnt the only two greek cities in proximity with each other have some sort of friendly relations? If it is historically unproven then don't bother though. Just play some "me against the world" by Tupac, I can live with that

[Zarax]

Emporion was a colony of massalia IIRC so it would just make sense

[Deiphobos]

Emporion was a colony of massalia IIRC so it would just make sense

They have a similar background as both are colonies of Phokaia.

[Ferrus]

Whiskeyjack: I think my downfall in my third game was going for Iberia as well, thus over extending my lines and far away from the recruiting centres....

[DimeBagHo]

Deiphobos: There's no hard rule against starting with more than one region. Epirus will start with at least two, and Pergamum will probably start with two.

When I first made the Massalia campaign I included Emporion, but then decided it might be better to leave the player with the choice of not taking it, and thus not having to deal with Iberia early on.

Ferrus: Thanks for the reports. Adding some more population probably wouldn't hurt. If you try Massalia again, see if you can use enslavement to keep up your population numbers (slaves go to settlements with governors, so you can use that to direct them to Massalia itself).

Exterminating and moving on is also a good way to pay for an extra stack that you wouldn't have the income for otherwise. I wonder if pillaging through Gaul, and turning regions over to the Independent Gauls, might be a good second stage strategy.

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskeyjack: I think my downfall in my third game was going for Iberia as well, thus over extending my lines and far away from the recruiting centres....

I took Numantia and basically used that as a glorified fort to keep the iberians at bay(1 stack will suffice for that) while my main forces took over all gual. Numantia is good becuase if i remember correctly it allow's you to retrain your barbarian troops. I also made fairly liberal use of enslavement so that may be why i did not have any significant population problems.

@Dime, Glad to hear you will be adding Celto Hellenic hoplites that should add a bit more character to the campaign.

[Whiskeyjack]

I played a h/h campaign though i did stop once i took over Gual, i thought the difficulty was spot on personally.

[Scutarii]

Dime, wouldn't Epirus start with 3, Ambracia, Tarentum and Salona? Or would you leave Salona with the Indie Greeks?

[DimeBagHo]

Scutarii: I'll have to check into that - I think the region may have been controlled by the Illyrians at the time. In the main campaign it goes to the IGCS so that when the Galatian horde spawns for the Macedonian and Thracian campaigns, it's forced to move in the right direction.

[Stilgar CG]

Dime, thanks for Bosporan compaign. That was faster than ever. I wonder ... maybe DimeBagHo is abbreviation that includes names of three persons ?! :hmmm:That would explain a lot ...

[Zarax]

Well, if you really have to know... Here's a picture of DBH at work:

A balloon to who recognizes it first!

[Stilgar CG]

I see, Zarax. So, DBH is Matrix the Farther. Then, he must be also the Son, and the Holy Spirit as well ? So, my trinity theory was not that far from the truth .

[Zarax]

Well, that was the brain, but you know the arms too:

[Dom9127]

It wouldn't surprise me if DBH saw the whole world in code...