TWC Religious Debate

[confidential0216]

Respectful Discussion of Religions and Philosophies

This may have been done before, but this thread is for debating religions in a respectful way. Share what your believe, why you believe it and how you keep a firm believe in your faith. You can preach all you want, if you want, but please be respectful. If you do not believe in God or any Supreme Being, you are also free to share your ideas. Whether you are Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, or another religion/philosophy not listed, all are welcome to discuss and exchange their thoughts. (Remember, this is a mature, respectful exchange of ideas. If you have nothing positive to add, do not write in this thread. If you post something with terrible spelling in all caps, you will be disregarded.)


I'll start this thing first. I am a Pentecostal Christian. I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. You must accept him as your Lord and Savior and ask him to come into your heart to become saved. "Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) I believe God created the Heavens and the Earth, as well as all animals and people on it. I do not believe that because you go to church and do good deeds you will go to heaven. It doesn't matter what denomination you are. Whether you are Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, the only thing that matters is that whether you had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who gave his life for you on the cross. Thus, just being Catholic or any other form of Christian does not mean you are going to heaven. To me, Catholocism is a little fuzzy. Is the worship or Mary not idolotry? Mary was an important woman, hand-picked by God to bring his Son to the Earth, but should she be prayed to or worshipped? Now I'm bound to get some Flak from Catholics for those remarks, but if you are Catholic, explain the practice to me. Since I am not Catholic I do not understand the ideas behind many Catholic practices, traditions, etc.

I believe people have the wrong idea about Christians. I believe that the majority of people think that Christians are some right-wing loons that hold onto an outdated religion. This is because of the bad examples that some Christians have set. When I see somebody on a reality show who claims to be Christian and then acts in a ridiculous way, I'm almost ashamed to say that I'm a Christian. What must the rest of the world think? I'll say right now that the Crusaders in the Middle Ages were NOT true Christians. They raped and murdered innocent civilians, Muslim and Jewish alike. Jesus wishes that we feel no ill-will against other men. Most non-believers probably think Christians are completely anti-homosexual. A true Christian would welcome a homosexual into their church and befriend them with no second thought. I'm not saying that I'm a prefect Christian and everybody else is not, but Christians who are prejudiced against people for any reason are not really following the teachings of Christ, are they? When I see or hear about the Westboro Baptist Church, I get frustrated that such people are giving Christians a bad name. Not all Christians are strange either! I'm a normal guy with normal friends, just trying to live my life. (I am not trying to say that Christians are constantly under attack by negative stereotypes. These are just issues I've noticed.)

If you were turned off by the length of this, but read through it all anyway, you have my thanks. Feel free to share and discuss your views.

For more information on some of the subjects I mentioned, here are some links:

Westboro Baptist Church - http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Pentecostal Christian - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

Questions about anything I said? Feel free to ask away.

[Kiljaden]

o/ Resident cynic here I'll start off soft.

You say Crusaders were not True Christians (even though they were following the church at the time). I suggest you read Joshua chapter 6.

Joshua 6:20-21
20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Footnotes:
a. "Devoted" Joshua 6:17 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them; also in verses 18 and 21.

They were following the Word of God, and carrying the Ark at the same time too. How do you reconcile this genocide, this infanticide, in the name of your Lord?

Edit: Don't take me for a , I'm actually a really nice guy And I like that you're a more rational Christian than normal. Nice to meet you

[confidential0216]

o/ Resident cynic here I'll start off soft.

You say Crusaders were not True Christians (even though they were following the church at the time). I suggest you read Joshua chapter 6.

Joshua 6:20-21
20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city.
21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Footnotes:
a. "Devoted" Joshua 6:17 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them; also in verses 18 and 21.

They were following the Word of God, and carrying the Ark at the same time too. How do you reconcile this genocide, this infanticide, in the name of your Lord?

Edit: Don't take me for a , I'm actually a really nice guy And I like that you're a more rational Christian than normal. Nice to meet you

I knew somebody would bring this up. It seems the Old Testament is full of violence such as this. Honestly, I'm not really very knowleadgible about events in the Bible, as to why they happened. I have a friend who teaches his students about events in the Bible so I will have to ask him. All I can say at the moment, from my current knowledge, is that they were enemies of God and of the Israelites, God's chosen people. God will protect and defend his people, who at the time were threatened by the city of Jericho. Another event that will likely be brought up is Sodom and Gamora, which was destroyed by fire from the heavens sent by God to punish the people for their unbelievable sin. That is just the way it was, I suppose. I'll have to get back to this one.

And thank you for your kind words. Nice to meet you too.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Isn't this what this whole...forum is for?

[confidential0216]

Sorry for the double post.

Isn't this what this whole...forum is for?

Yes it is but I'd rather have the entire discussion in one thread than have to search all around for different pieces of an argument. This way it is easier. Saves some time.

I have a problem.

I dont' know were I fit in religion.
I belive in a God, and I pray for him a lot. It seems that I get what I want from God but its in ways I thought differently. I hate church and never go to one.

I feel that killing another person is ok if justified, but stealing and backstabing is not. I was (am) christan, but I think Jesus is eather a regular guy or son of god, but not god himself! (Pisses me off thinking that a person is god)

I don't hate anyone really for what they are. I hate argueing vs. different religions cause its just childish and really dumb. Also, I hate people trying to convert people to other faiths by offering some reward or something. Really dumb, treating God like propaganda, like its a race to get more people or something.

Anyways, can anyone help me out?

Well, you're a little vague, but I'll try to help you a bit.

I'd say you're a Christian, but maybe a little confused about certain things. Killing is not justified in any way I can think of except for war. What do you considered justified? Elaborate a bit on that.

I can understand why you hate church, believe me. A few months ago I hated church, but I've been getting more connected with God and trying to live for him and I've come to ignore all the crap that made me hate church. Whether it's the strange people in the back doing their weird little dances or the fake people always calling out, not that all are, but it's obvious to tell who is faking it. The only thing I can say is ignore what you hate, but again, elaborate on what you hate about it.

Bribing somebody in order for them to convert to your religion is never a good thing, so it is good that you do nott agree with it.

If God is answering your prayers, that is always a good sign. I know what you mean, when God answers a prayer in a way you did not think he would. It has happened to me. I'm not sure why He does it sometime and it does not really concern me. As long as I am heard and He responds somehow, I'm happy.

confidential0216 - So, enemies of God deserve to die, and have their babies killed and their animals slaughtered? I'm sorry man, but this sounds very immoral and more like God is playing with ants than anything else. It also sounds like modern violent fundamental radicals of Islam.

The point I'm trying to illustrate, since I'm well aware of the supposed reform of the religious doctrine post-Jesus, is why Christians even include the Old Testament at all. Christians don't stone their insolent sons to death, they don't sacrifice two turtledoves every time they have their menstrual cycle. The only Old Testament thing it seems that Christians perhaps still adhere to is the completely illogical and implausible creation story, and even then only around 15% of American Christians believe in a 6,000 year old Earth and the Adam and Eve story in light of the mountains of evidence for (and not one piece of evidence refuting) the Theory of Evolution of Life on Earth and human Common Ancestry.

The only reconciliation I can come up with for this mess is that when the bible was canonized hundreds of years after Jesus, that the cardinals or whoever was in the democratic council that literally elected the minority of new testament books that made it into canon still considered the violent angry God of the Torah to be relevant to their new religion that they (humans) created.

[FONT=Times New Roman]I see what you are saying about the Old Testament and I kind of thought like that myself a while back. There is a purpose for it and a reason we acknowledge it, but honestly I'm not prepared for such an argument. I do not think God still destroys his enemies as he did then, but I know for a fact that he still defends Israel, which is why it will never be defeated or destroyed. By the way, I'm sure this will make some people laugh, but there is actually a Christian scholar on TV that disproves different parts of Evolution. I don't watch him, butI've heard about him.[FONT=Times New Roman]

[Fijj]

But, thats the thing. Why is killing justified in war and not in peace? Did God make that war, or was it a human that made it? I see no difference between killing a traitor/stealer in the streets or killing a professional solider on the battlefield. Justified is someone that sinned and it effects you personally. And killing anyother person that is of anyother religion is not justified eather.

Ok, I hate church because its so fake to me. All we do is sing songs and talk about . Our pastor trys to ask cool to bring kids in, but that seems corrupt to me in some odd way. But, on the other hand, I went to this other church when I was younger. It was one of those strict border-line catholic churches (was protestant though), and it seems that I was worshiping the bible more than God himself. I felt the bible is just a book with good morales in it, but its not by any means the words of God. Thats what both churches talk about, the bible and how it is Gods words like as if he wrote it and justified it himself.

[Kiljaden]

but there is actually a Christian scholar on TV that disproves different parts of Evolution. I don't watch him, butI've heard about him.

There is not one shred of evidence that disputes the Theory of Evolution that has been independently verified by any number of scientists. Most of their arguments rely on the God of the Gaps argument or the "it's complicated, so it was designed" argument, when natural selection can 100% explain the complexity of life on Earth.

The rest of their arguments are either based on the logic of a 2 year old (a banana fits in my hand, so God must have made us! I'm serious, youtube it,), or on drawing lines between the Theory of Evolution and softer speculative theories like the Big Bang Theory and Abiogenesis Theory, which are still in the developmental stages until more evidence mounts. Make no mistakes, these are three completely different and independent theories. God could have made the Earth 4.5 billion years ago and sparked life, and Evolution took its course from there (a more logical standpoint than 6,000 year Young Earth Creationism)

If you subscribe to any of these beliefs let me know, that's a great subject I can ream you into the ground on

EDIT:

Fijj - "Our pastor trys to ask cool to bring kids in, but that seems corrupt to me in some odd way."

...

Ring any bells? God belief is fine in and of itself, but religion is a 6,000 year old corruption machine, churning out hatred, war, despair, and deceit.

Get 'em while they're young, they say. Indoctrinate them as kids so when they grow old enough to be of thinking age, they don't question the pre-approved slew of beliefs we have for them

[Fijj]

I have a problem.

I dont' know were I fit in religion.
I belive in a God, and I pray for him a lot. It seems that I get what I want from God but its in ways I thought differently. I hate church and never go to one.

I feel that killing another person is ok if justified, but stealing and backstabing is not. I was (am) christan, but I think Jesus is eather a regular guy or son of god, but not god himself! (Pisses me off thinking that a person is god)

I don't hate anyone really for what they are. I hate argueing vs. different religions cause its just childish and really dumb. Also, I hate people trying to convert people to other faiths by offering some reward or something. Really dumb, treating God like propaganda, like its a race to get more people or something.

Anyways, can anyone help me out?

[Kiljaden]

Fijj - Yeah, I can help clear that up for you right now.

Don't pray -for- God, God is omnipotent and doesn't need your help.

Don't pray -to- God, any rewards you receive from said prayers are coincidences and unattributable to God. Seriously, if God were to answer prayers, this world would be in a worse way than it is right now. Also, if God were to selectively influence matters based on how much he likes you and how much you pray, then we should see a statistical decrease in cancer deaths and car accidents among religious people - and we don't.

Also, yes - Jesus was a great man that preached some great things. It's that whole '400 years later some people decided to write some books on him" that really screwed up his message.

EDIT:

confidential0216 - So, enemies of God deserve to die, and have their babies killed and their animals slaughtered? I'm sorry man, but this sounds very immoral and more like God is playing with ants than anything else. It also sounds like modern violent fundamental radicals of Islam.

The point I'm trying to illustrate, since I'm well aware of the supposed reform of the religious doctrine post-Jesus, is why Christians even include the Old Testament at all. Christians don't stone their insolent sons to death, they don't sacrifice two turtledoves every time they have their menstrual cycle. The only Old Testament thing it seems that Christians perhaps still adhere to is the completely illogical and implausible creation story, and even then only around 15% of American Christians believe in a 6,000 year old Earth and the Adam and Eve story in light of the mountains of evidence for (and not one piece of evidence refuting) the Theory of Evolution of Life on Earth and human Common Ancestry.

The only reconciliation I can come up with for this mess is that when the bible was canonized hundreds of years after Jesus, that the cardinals or whoever was in the democratic council that literally elected the minority of new testament books that made it into canon still considered the violent angry God of the Old Testament to be relevant to their new religion that they (humans) created.

[Fijj]

Fijj - Yeah, I can help clear that up for you right now.

Don't pray -for- God, God is omnipotent and doesn't need your help.

Don't pray -to- God, any rewards you receive from said prayers are coincidences and unattributable to God. Seriously, if God were to answer prayers, this world would be in a worse way than it is right now. Also, if God were to selectively influence matters based on how much he likes you and how much you pray, then we should see a statistical decrease in cancer deaths and car accidents among religious people - and we don't.

Also, yes - Jesus was a great man that preached some great things. It's that whole '400 years later some people decided to write some books on him" that really screwed up his message.

Hmm...
I think I'm smart enough to not listen to a Athist though. Thanks anyways for your replay trying to recruit me into your heartless God-less religion.

[Kiljaden]

Hmm...
I think I'm smart enough to not listen to [an Atheist] though. Thanks anyways for your replay trying to recruit me into your heartless God-less religion.

Ouch.
First of all, I'm not an Atheist.
Second of all, I wasn't trying to recruit you into anything, I'm trying to open your eyes to the unsubstantiated logical fallacy of believing in prayer.
Thirdly, Atheism is not a religion, Atheism is by definition a "lack of a belief in gods" (Where I have a belief in a God, just not yours). There is no Atheist church, Atheists don't gather on Sunday (or Saturday, or any day) and talk about how much they don't believe in gods.
Fourthly, even if you were to classify Atheists as a group of similar people as you have, your labeling of Atheists as "heartless" is prejudice and ignorance. Lack of a belief in gods does not equate to lack of morals. Most of the morality in the Bible is some of the most nasty and ridiculous nonsense there is. The few good things that are there are innate to any member of a functional society - don't murder, don't adulter, don't steal. You don't need a God to tell you that and if you do, you're a sad piece of work my friend.

[Fijj]

Ouch.
First of all, I'm not an Atheist.
Second of all, I wasn't trying to recruit you into anything, I'm trying to open your eyes to the unsubstantiated logical fallacy of believing in prayer.
Thirdly, Atheism is not a religion, Atheism is by definition a "lack of a belief in gods" (Where I have a belief in a God, just not yours). There is no Atheist church, Atheists don't gather on Sunday (or Saturday, or any day) and talk about how much they don't believe in gods.
Fourthly, even if you were to classify Atheists as a group of similar people as you have, your labeling of Atheists as "heartless" is prejudice and ignorance. Lack of a belief in gods does not equate to lack of morals. Most of the morality in the Bible is some of the most nasty and ridiculous nonsense there is. The few good things that are there are innate to any member of a functional society - don't murder, don't adulter, don't steal. You don't need a God to tell you that and if you do, you're a sad piece of work my friend.

You seem pretty defensive towards Atheist for not being one yourself.:hmmm:
I wouldn't hold that against you though.

Well, How could you understand logic if God himself created it? Why would there be a stat decrease in deaths? Who doesn't want to be with God, cause I sure would want to be with him. Also, what if it took a car accident to a loved one for someone to invent the air-bag? Or maybe a certaint bike-rider that showed kids and adults what not giving up does?

Edit: I say the church is corrupt, but not God himself sir. I learned these things though talking to God (I think?) and apperent self logic and thought.

[confidential0216]

Second of all, I wasn't trying to recruit you into anything, I'm trying to open your eyes to the unsubstantiated logical fallacy of believing in prayer.

I've had prayers answered. Even though it may seem like nonsense to you, and I guess you have no real reason to believe in prayer, it is actually a big part of my life. It's part of my faith and it helps get me through each day. Logic does get in the way sometimes, but I've learned to forget what my worldly mind tells me and focus on what God tells me.

[Miraj]

OK, my contribution to this thread:

There is no god and when you die you rot in the grave.

Fini.

[Fijj]

OK, my contribution to this thread:

There is no god and when you die you rot in the grave.

Fini.

Now I thought you were Islamic...

[Miraj]

Now I thought you were Islamic...

I only believe in the hate raping and terrorism. The rest is nonsense.

[Fijj]

I only believe in the hate raping and terrorism. The rest is nonsense.

What of normal rape?
Is that worst than hate rape?

[Miraj]

Sorry man, now we're going off topic. Sorry mods!

On topic:

Yeah, God.. he's like that big brother you never had.. and still don't.

[al-charif]

The First of all i pray unto you peace.

I will intruduse for you my Religion: Al-Islaam

i would like to explain something first the name of islam is not from any area nor person nor tribe like christianity(from Christos) and
judaïsm(tribe Judea).
islam is the chosen name from Allah(god) for The only Treu Religion.

in general:
Islam - "Islam" means (surrender; submission; obedience; peace)

Surrender to the ''One'' who created you.
Submit to the sustainer
Obedience to the eturnel
peace for the whole world.

End of Part One

every one is welcome to ask any question.
just send me a message with you Question

Peace from Your Brother in Humanity Al-charif.

[confidential0216]

The First of all i pray unto you peace.

I will intruduse for you my Religion: Al-Islaam

i would like to explain something first the name of islam is not from any area nor person nor tribe like christianity(from Christos) and
judaïsm(tribe Judea).
islam is the chosen name from Allah(god) for The only Treu Religion.

in general:
Islam - "Islam" means (surrender; submission; obedience; peace)

Surrender to the ''One'' who created you.
Submit to the sustainer
Obedience to the eturnel
peace for the whole world.

End of Part One

every one is welcome to ask any question.
just send me a message with you Question

Peace from Your Brother in Humanity Al-charif.

Thanks for the post Al-charif. It is good to see people of other religions getting involved in the discussion.

confidential, humans (homo sapiens sapiens) did not come from apes, we are apes. That's simply how our species is classified, more specifically we are great apes, along with chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orangutangs.

Well, what I was referring to was the idea that ape-like creatures (like the "Lucy" skeleton) slowly evolved into modern man. Our classification does not concern me as much.