Reduced accuracy for ranged units

[zedestroyer]

Do you think that ranged units should have a reduced accuracy to weaken them (the present solution in XGM)?

[TM Is Back]

I wont vote. I'll join the mass

[Publius Quirinus]

I picked option 1, because it just seems to me that certain elite ranged units should be more deadly because of their superior range and accuracy rather than higher attack.

Not sure how it actually is in XGM though, personally not such a big fan of foot archers.

[Scutarii]

I voted 2: I don't think they should be weakened. I like my slingers how they were before... Playing as Carthage, the new settings really hurt when fighting Rome, as their infantry rip through yours. That said, I'm totally open to other methods of weakening them, so maybe 3 is a good choice too.

[Dom9127]

I think shield defense should be raised instead.

[zedestroyer]

I know how to remove the reduced accuracy, but I think that ranged units really need to be weakened a bit. So I prefer to discuss and try to reach a better solution, instead of simply changing things by my own and maintaining the problems.
I don't agree with the present solution, it increases casualties by friendly fire and it's too harsh for ranged units, especially foot ones. Before the reduced accuracy was included in the mod, it was already hard to kill enemy units from the front.
It was easier from the back, but that's realistic, Numidians were good because they were able to quickly approach the rear of enemy engaged units, trow their javelins and run away before the enemy could response.
So it would be better if heavy infantry had better shield defense and even armor and to have ranged units with lower attack capability.

[Stilgar CG]

Zedestroyer, good idea to keep this subject alive. You have my vote on that
I am not voting yet, guys: still have to try new stats myself and waiting for more facts from others. Did some first tests with slingers though (XGM 5.7.9).

Test 1: Standard Macedon slingers vs unit of TSE phalangists; no shevrons or extra attack points; firing in the face; all ammo consumed.
Result: 20 of 120 phalangists dead

Test 2: Same as above except for slingers having 2 shevrons a +1 attack.
Result: 47 of 120 phalangists dead

Test 3: Standard Macedon slingers+ Levy phalangists vs. unit of TSE phalangists; no shevrons or extra attack points; firing in rear; all ammo consumed; levy phalangists in guard mode to pin phalangists.
Result: Slingers killed 54 enemy phalangists; Levy phalangists killed 35 (and lost 94).

N.B. All custom battles were stopped after slingers exhausted all their ammo. Slingers never entered into melee.

Slingers seem to be deadly enough even with new stats. Admittedly, my tests say next to nothing about the extent of friendly fire or anything about other ranged units. I'll keep checking other missile units.
Hope to see this sort of info and results of custom battles perhaps, and only then long concluding remarks.

P.S. Was the unit size of the ranged units under consideration? :hmmm:
Would a reduction from 80 to 60 (70-?) for range units be an option? Well, that would probably mean no range units at low unit size . Just some thoughts aloud . ME

[zedestroyer]

Slingers have that nasty armor piercing capability. It is possible to make them knock down enemy soldiers instead of killing them. My idea is to make slingers knocked down some enemy soldiers instead of killing them, this should break the enemy formation and would be much more realistic. Is this possible?

PS: Hey, onagers can do this, maybe we can have slingers with the same effect.

[Scutarii]

54 phalangists (from the back), is nothing. If slingers are only killing that many, I'd say a different option should be used. Would a reduction in unit size do the trick (possibly combined with a stat decrease for missiles)? Having slingers/archers at 60 and skirmishes at 80-90 and reducing missile attack by, say, 2, might achieve a close enough effect to right now. I still think that slingers have been weakened far too much, haven't tested much with archers....

[Dom9127]

My idea is to make slingers knocked down some enemy soldiers instead of killing them[

I am pretty sure this already exists with all missiles, though if we removed the ap attack for javelins and enhanced this effect further it would be good.

[zedestroyer]

I am pretty sure this already exists with all missiles, though if we removed the ap attack for javelins and enhanced this effect further it would be good.

No, missiles just stop some men for a very very short amount of time.
I'm talking about knocking them down, make them fall in the floor, like onagers do. If we could do this, the slingers would be more realistic, they would disrupt enemy formations and kill less enemies.

[Whiskeyjack]

I like the current settings for archers and slingers though i do feel javelin weapons are too strong still.

[zedestroyer]

I like the current settings for archers and slingers though i do feel javelin weapons are too strong still.

You fell that playing which faction, against which faction??

[Whiskeyjack]

You fell that playing which faction, against which faction??

Since the missile change's i have played Bactria and Pontus campaign's, currently playing Gaul.

[atraps]

54 phalangists (from the back), is nothing.

Nothing? I say that is plenty of casualties from the back. We cant have slingers powerful enough to kill more then that as then it would make the game to easy for the human player as the AI cannot protect itself from missiles.

Would a reduction in unit size do the trick (possibly combined with a stat decrease for missiles)?

The problem with those ideas is that a decrease in unit size isnt very effective in small unit scale and is too effective in huge unit scale. Decreasing the attack will work until the slingers gain experence (which missile troops gain quite easily) then they will become killing machines again.

It is possible to make them knock down enemy soldiers instead of killing them. My idea is to make slingers knocked down some enemy soldiers instead of killing them, this should break the enemy formation and would be much more realistic. Is this possible?

PS: Hey, onagers can do this, maybe we can have slingers with the same effect.

The problem with that idea is there is only one attribute that we can give missile troops that will cause troops to get knocked down and that is the "launching" effect (that is what artillery have) but giving missiles the "launching" attribute will also make troops fly up in the air, which will look kinnda weird from missile attack.

[zedestroyer]

Nothing? I say that is plenty of casualties from the back. We cant have slingers powerful enough to kill more then that as then it would make the game to easy for the human player as the AI cannot protect itself from missiles.

The slingers used all their ammunition, something that is hard to do in a major battle, especially and if AI is attacking you, in this your slingers will be able to shoot very few stones before AI units engage your units and it's not easy to position slingers in the enemy rear. So killing 54 phalanx, normal ones, not those heavier elite phalanx, after spending all the ammunition shooting against the phalangists backs, it's very bad, the number should be higher.

The problem with those ideas is that a decrease in unit size isnt very effective in small unit scale and is too effective in huge unit scale. Decreasing the attack will work until the slingers gain experence (which missile troops gain quite easily) then they will become killing machines again.

Melee infatry units also become killing machines when they gain a few chevrons. Let's weeken them also?

I like to use only 1-2 offensive armies, I'm carefull with the units that compose them and I sometimes stop my offensives when I have to send a substancial number of those units to retrain. Why? Because I, like many military leaders, I prefer to use veteran soldiers, they are stronger and after some time my offensive armies are just unstopable not only my ranged units, but also my heavy infantry and cavalry units became killing machines.

[Unknown Soldier]

Why are you debating this?

I though Dime had already made it so - option 1.

[Whiskeyjack]

I dont believe its possible to mod the rate at which units gain experience.

[atraps]

The slingers used all their ammunition, something that is hard to do in a major battle, especially and if AI is attacking you, in this your slingers will be able to shoot very few stones before AI units engage your units and it's not easy to position slingers in the enemy rear.

You can very easily use all your missile troops' ammo verus the AI all the time. You keep on saying that once the AI engages your own infantry troops your slingers become useless, well you dont need to let the AI catch your infantry troops, just run away and while they chase you shoot them in the back with your archer/slingers. This is especially true when the AI has phalangists as the AI will just walk around with them and you can shoot them in the back all battle long.

So killing 54 phalanx, normal ones, not those heavier elite phalanx, after spending all the ammunition shooting against the phalangists backs, it's very bad, the number should be higher.

No it shouldnt as if it is higher then you can slaughter the AI with missile troops.

Melee infatry units also become killing machines when they gain a few chevrons. Let's weeken them also?

Thats not the point. The AI is pretty good with melee troops, as it knows how to fight (kill) with them so they will gain experience just as the human player will. On the other hand the AI is not good at fighting with missiles as they dont know how to fight (kill) as effectively as the human player, as the human player knows how to shoot units in the back, shoot units that are vunerable to missiles, and knows how to protect these troops so the human player will have missile units that are uber gold chevron troops, whereas the AI doesnt know how to do these things so its missile units will never be as effective.

Btw, I wonder whether decreasing the rate the missile units gain experience, instead of their stats, could do any good ? Is it possible to mod those rates? Say, slingers need to kill twice/three times as much as before to gain one shevron. They can kill, but are not insaintly deadly. Friendly fire is back to normal. I like this better, I think.

No I dont think that is possible as IIRC that part of the game is hard-coded.

[Scutarii]

While I agree with many of your points atraps, I disagree that 54 phalangists from the back is a substantial amount. Now, I realize it was possible without the reduced accuracy to gain maybe 200+ kills in a battle with one unit of slingers (maybe 1-2 chevrons), if allowing an infantry battleline to engage and shooting their backs. I know, I've done it, and that is definitely far too many. But 54.... Is weakening them far too much. They just don't imapct the battle enough anymore to make them worth recruiting.

What about keeping the same effect (reduced accuracy for all ranged units), but lessening it, so for example, if all accuracy is right now 75%, make it 85%. I think that would go a long way, while still keeping the effect that Dime wants to portray.