trouble with epithets

[vindex246]

I'm experimenting with building an extended family tree for Sicily, using the Kingdoms engine.

Problem is, the only person who ever gets an epithet (at start-up) is the "patriarch" (the senior male in the line). All of his descendents get overriden with the family name, regardless of the traits I assign. When there is no family name, the epithet is simply missing (overriden with a blank family name, I presume).

This is particularly problematic for two reasons:

1) It's useful to start with a dead patriarch, so you can give the faction leader brothers and sisters. But since the faction leader is not the patriarch, now even he does not get assigned an epithet. (e.g., Tancred de Hauteville is the dead patriach, his son Robert is the living faction leader, but his trait DeceiverVirtue 3 doesn't give him "the Cunning" epithet, he's just "Robert de Hauteville")

2) I'd like to assign special one-time nicknames (Borsa, Bosso, Guiscard etc) using hidden traits with epithets. I've read other modders suggest doing this on the old RTW threads. But obviously if epithets don't show up for anyone besides the patriarch, this won't work.

Presumably generals, family members, etc. are all eligible to earn epithets in the course of play. Is this just a problem with the engine assigning names and epithets at start-up? Or am I doing something incorrect?

[vindex246]

After much experimentation, I found the answer to my question, which I will share in case anyone is interested.

I can confirm that, using the Kingdoms engine at least, upon start-up the game only assigns epithets to the senior male in the family tree. No other family member receives starting epithets regardless of traits assigned in descr_strat.txt.

The solution is to add a console command line in campaign_script.txt, as follows:

console_command give_trait "Robert de_Hauteville" DeceiverVirtue 3

Upon start-up, the epithet associated with this trait will now be properly displayed as part of the character's name.

In earlier versions of the M2TW engine, there was apparently some problem with the give_trait command working properly, especially for characters with surnames. This has apparently been fixed and works fine for me.

[Callistonian]

After much experimentation, I found the answer to my question, which I will share in case anyone is interested.

My man. This guy got no replies and still magnanimously posted the solution to his question when he found it himself and now here we are, 12 years later, and this is exactly what I needed.

I'm getting my time machine out to rep you.

[Gigantus]

I was under the impression that having a dummy high value effect, like magic 10 would suffice to make the epithet trait prominent and therefore display the epithet? At least that's the consensus I am aware of, I have however not used more then one per faction so far and would need to test to confirm the issue.

[Callistonian]

Are you suggesting that the Magic effect does nothing?

I've tested vindex246's solution (adding a hidden trait with the epithet straight away on turn 1) and it works as he described.

[Gigantus]

The magic effect does nothing unless it's the witch agent\character that receives it. Same with violence and priests, charm with princesses, finance with merchant etc. the principle has been in use for a while - used it extensively in 1648 and had no issues. The goal being that the epithet does not get replaced with another one that gives a higher 'score':

Trait GrafvonMansfeld
    Characters family
    Hidden

    Level GrafvonMansfeld
        Description GrafvonMansfeld_desc
        EffectsDescription GrafvonMansfeld_effects_desc
        Epithet GrafvonMansfeld_epithet_desc
        Threshold  1 

    Effect TroopMorale 1
    Effect Violence  10
    Effect Loyalty  8

Adding the trait via console command at game start will obviously work but will require labeling the character to avoid giving the trait to the wrong character.
Hidden - that's pretty much mandatory if you don't want\need an additional info in the trait list, doesn't stop the epithet from displaying.

[Callistonian]

Do you know precisely what magic does for witches and have you tested that it does nothing for any other agent types? Same question for violence/priests, charm/princesses, and finance/merchants. This will be useful info for the list in the other thread.

This is an interesting trick that I'm sure will be useful for adding non-unique epithets to non-unique characters. My mod strictly controls epithets for labeled characters so the hidden trait works fine.

[Gigantus]

I have unconfirmed assumptions for most of those restricted effects:
violence - increase in chance to burn heretics at the stakes
magic - increased chance to turn characters into theretics
charm - increased chance to 'elope' with a character (mild doubt if it also increases diplomacy in general)
finance - increased trade income when standing on resource
subterfuge - increased chance of spy and assassination missions
Each of these require an action that is specific to only one type of agent, which means that application to other agent types (characters) is ineffective.

[Jadli]

Sounds like exactly what I need. Was thinking of removing leader titles (or at least for most part) and controlling it with FL epithets, to track factions gaining more titles, such as Lord - King - Emperor.
Using these agent attributes would ensure it doesnt get replaced with other ones

[Gigantus]

I believe an epithet with a level 10 effect (even accumulated I think) will replace an earlier epithet with a level 10 effect when triggered.

Caveat: epithets get added to the end of a name, eg replace any existing surnames while titles are usually a precursor.

[Withwnar]

Effect levels don't play a part in epithet replacement. The most recently gained epithet-trait is the epithet they will get. Explained here and also how to make them keep it: reapply the trait every turn.

[Gigantus]

Damn, I really need to test that myself so I don't forget it again.

Edit: yup, effects level doesn't matter - a new epithet replaces the old.

I added magic 10 to level 5 of the GoodCommander trait and then gave only that trait to the FL, FH and non family named character of england. In the next round a simple trigger then gave a epithet trait with no effects at all, replacing the prior epithet.

One curiosity: the FL did not show the initial epithet while the other two did.

[Withwnar]

One curiosity: the FL did not show the initial epithet while the other two did.

Were they given the trait by script or descr_strat?

[Gigantus]

All three characters had the initial (and only) trait given in descr_strat, the FL failed to show the epithet even so the trait description was present. Had the heir with 'Prince Rufus the mighty' as well as 'Robin the mighty' but only a 'King William'.

The second trait's epithet, given via regular trigger, showed just fine on all three characters.

[Jadli]

Soo, if I understand correctly what you guys have just said, it means my idea with permanent epithets to show "leader's" title cant work reliably, unless I would reapply the trait evey turn... (or delete all other epithets )

Caveat: epithets get added to the end of a name, eg replace any existing surnames while titles are usually a precursor.

I know. I mean I would either remove the pre name titles in expanded.txt, (leave them blank) or use some more "neutral" title, so it wouldnt look weird with the after name titles. What I want for leaders is to have correct titles based on the factions progress/power/expansion/etc (once you control certain settlements, you receive a new "crown" pretty much). As my factions usually start pretty small, but usually are part of some existing (or not existing yet) de iure title, which they can later aquire.

So for example:
Ragnar, Jarl of Haafingar
Ragnar, High King of Skyrim
Ragnar, Emperor of Tamriel

[Gigantus]

That will work best following withwnar's method of applying those traits.

Looking at the formatting of the pre name title you might be able to put it at the end of the name by changing the position of the 'place holder' but I guess that won't be helpful for you because of the progression you are looking for:
{EMT_DENMARK_FACTION_LEADER_NAME}King %S

Tried "%S King" with the previous set up: title is after first name followed by epithet. Maybe you can use that?

Ragnar, Chief of Skyrim, Upholder of the Faith. The commas will need to be given by the title and the epithet respectively, eg %S, Chief of Skyrim