Why siege battles are broken - my men won't fight!

[bigdaddy1204]

Yes, this one puts the 'broken' in 'Broken Crescent'!

When I launch a siege assault against any enemy settlement, my men climb the ladders, get onto the wall, and then just stand there getting killed!

It makes no difference if I order them to attack the enemy unit, or if I order them to stop. The result is the same: my men stand there, not fighting, simply taking blows from the enemy until they are all dead.

This has caused me to take excessive casualties during battles which should be easy to win; for example, I attacked an enemy town when the odds were 6 to 1 in my favour, I had overwhelmingly superior units - elite Dembus macemen and Makurian infantry against lowly Saracen militia - and yet my men just stood there and would not fight properly.

This makes siege assault battles unplayable, since I am losing hundreds of men just due to a bug in the game. Not fun.

I really like the mod otherwise; please please fix this frustrating problem with the next patch so we can get back to enjoying battles as they should be!

Thanks
bigdaddy1204

[Rob2984]

I've noticed this problem too... seems to occur when you try to flood the walls with attackers, that is using as many ladders as possible at one section. It's not unique to Broken Crescent either, I've seen it in Deus Lo Vult as well.

[♔Old Dragoon♔]

Have you tried siege towers? I use them a lot and have never had your problem. I know it's slower, but could be an option for you. Also, what is your unit setting?

seems to occur when you try to flood the walls with attackers

Yeah, I always spread my ladders and siege towers out, and use a ram since there isn't any boiling oil.

[viskarenvisla]

Okay. Yes I agree this is very very stupid and is something that needs to be resolved and fixed - there's a way that I use to force my men to engage that usually saves me units, even if it is something that should be fixed.

Usually the way that I get them to engage is I double click on a space that would force my infantry to walk through the enemy. This way they start to move in and auto-engage with them. Try doing this. Also, as a future note, Dembus macemen and other two-handed axe template warriors I find don't work so well on walls, but that's an aside.

This is a silly bug that I'm sure our awesome BC guys will fix.

[anaztazioch]

I rarelly use 2 ladders on same wall part (betwean 2 towers). Never had this problem.

[Bull]

This can't be fixed, it's hardcoded.

It happens when there's not enough space on the walls for all the combatants (enemy soldiers and yours), then your soldier don't know what to do. Like viskarenvisla said, you can get around this problem by making them walk "over" the enemy soldiers to the next section of walls (which must have space enough for your men or they won't move).

I've long stopped using ladders and siege towers. In MTW2 the defending units get such an advantage it's a sure way to throw perfectly good units away. Since BC's AI is very different from vanilla MTW2, I always use catapults or trebuchet. You don't need many, just 1 or 2. Knock one section of wall down, and all defenders would rush back to town square, only to come back and attack when your units take the gate. So you should position all of your units just outside the castle gate, and rush them in all at once when they are ready.

[Thema'zandaar]

In MTW2 the defending units get such an advantage it's a sure way to throw perfectly good units away.

It should be that way. My only grief is that there isn't any sapping in M2TW. This was the strongest weapon the invaders had. CA, bury your heads in shame.

[Bull]

It should be that way. My only grief is that there isn't any sapping in M2TW. This was the strongest weapon the invaders had. CA, bury your heads in shame.

True, sapping is sorely missed.

With regards to the defending units' bonus, I think it's realistic but overdone. My Pelekyphoroi lost more than half their numbers when assaulting walls guarded by lowly Kartlian spearmen. That's somewhat excessive, no?

Doesn't matter, I don't assault walls anymore. It's easier to just use trebs or rush through the gate.

[MAurelius11]

With regards to the defending units' bonus, I think it's realistic but overdone. My Pelekyphoroi lost more than half their numbers when assaulting walls guarded by lowly Kartlian spearmen. That's somewhat excessive, no?

Is this always true? I ask because I had two full units of the Sistani Heavy Spearmen on the wall and though they ended up beating one unit of K-something or other (noble Rajput swordsmen) they outnumbered them 2-1, on the walls, and barely walked away with half strength.

I just assumed that spearmen have a wall penalty, no matter how elite or well armored they are, which is a shame if true, as Ghazni doesn't have any halfway decent non-spear infantry. They do have those javelin guys, but Kwarezm has the same guys and a heavier version as well.

Not to derail the original point of the thread, but it seemed like a good place to put the question.

[Strelac]

Some units are not meant for wall assaulting, especially those armed with 2 H axes. Technically, those units should be the best wall defense, but the way 2H axmen is implemented in MTW2, they absolutely suck on the walls. In BC 1.5 they will be able to survive longer and take less losses from lower tier units if fighting on the walls, but in general use them on low ground only.

[bigdaddy1204]

Ok thanks for the answers!

I think I'll have to start integrating catapults and trebuchets into my battle plans, which I've never needed before.

In Rome Total Realism, I attack with rams against wooden walls, or siege towers vs stone walls. In Shogun and the original MTW, I just used to overrun the province and starve out the defenders of the castle. Ah, those were the days...! :p

What about unit formation? I noticed that unit cohesion also seems pretty problematic. Often, the front line of a unit will charge forward, while the rest of them stand back. This can result in severely fragmented units and messy battles. Can anything be done about this by the Broken Crescent team, or is that hard-coded too? It seems amazing, what a terrible mess CA made of Medieval 2 Total War....

[Strelac]

There is no concrete answer to this question. This issues is dependent on multiple factors, and circumstances. (for example unit that attacks on leveled ground has better chance of completing charge then those charging on rocky terrain, or unit which is not under arrow fire will have better chance of executing full charge then those attacked by arrows just before charging...etc )
Moders have found ways to impact this by tweaking unit stats and other game factors. Some of those help, some make it worse, while some methods even though helpful with partial charge, will effect some other performance. So, this issue is not completely in control by moders.

I think its fair to say that the way ‘charge’ has been implemented in MTW it opens it to many flaws. Nevertheless, we have and will continue to do what we can to decrees this issue, as it is annoying aspect of the game play for all of us. I made some changes to only few parameters for 1.5 which seem to have reduced the occurrence of partial charge, at least based on the previous version of the mod. Even though, there are still some circumstances where partial charge is unavoidable, and it can be reproduced in every mod I have tried so far.

[Bull]

There is no concrete answer to this question. This issues is dependent on multiple factors, and circumstances. (for example unit that attacks on leveled ground has better chance of completing charge then those charging on rocky terrain, or unit which is not under arrow fire will have better chance of executing full charge then those attacked by arrows just before charging...etc )
Moders have found ways to impact this by tweaking unit stats and other game factors. Some of those help, some make it worse, while some methods even though helpful with partial charge, will effect some other performance. So, this issue is not completely in control by moders.

I think its fair to say that the way ‘charge’ has been implemented in MTW it opens it to many flaws. Nevertheless, we have and will continue to do what we can to decrees this issue, as it is annoying aspect of the game play for all of us. I made some changes to only few parameters for 1.5 which seem to have reduced the occurrence of partial charge, at least based on the previous version of the mod. Even though, there are still some circumstances where partial charge is unavoidable, and it can be reproduced in every mod I have tried so far.

SS 5.1 has rather short charge distances (I think 15 or 20) and that seems to reduce a lot of the partial charges. The problem is that it doesn't look as good visually (as they charge too late, with the enemy almost in their face), and possibly reduce the charge effectiveness of cavalry (no distance to gain momentum).

[The Noble Lord]

Never had this problem.
Perhaps you can retreat and attack again and again.
Does the problem happens with only some particular units or with all of them??

[bigdaddy1204]

I notice it especially when using Byzantine infantry such as swordsmen and skoutatoi spearmen, but unit cohesion is also a problem with horse archers.

Sometimes horse archers don't pull back fast enough to avoid being charged by enemy infantry or cavalry. It happens particularly when you leave them on skirmish mode. They move back in a very fragmented and chaotic way, completely losing formation and spreading over a large area. This is annoying, and it leaves them vulnerable to attack.

By contrast, I don't have too much trouble with heavy cavalry. I carefully line them up at a safe distance, then order them to charge the enemy from the rear or sides. This usually works, and is often highly effective, as it should be. Perhaps the extra micro-management I give to cavalry explains the difference.

Complaints aside, I still love Broken Crescent. It is the most impressive mod for any TW game I've ever seen.

[Thema'zandaar]

I notice it especially when using Byzantine infantry such as swordsmen and skoutatoi spearmen, but unit cohesion is also a problem with horse archers.

Sometimes horse archers don't pull back fast enough to avoid being charged by enemy infantry or cavalry. It happens particularly when you leave them on skirmish mode. They move back in a very fragmented and chaotic way, completely losing formation and spreading over a large area. This is annoying, and it leaves them vulnerable to attack.

This is because CA used motion capture to animate the little critters. Its actually somewhat realistic in that in depicts the chaos of military movements like retreating. But yeah, the AI could be better. For now, just micro it.

Perhaps the extra micro-management I give to cavalry explains the difference.

Perhaps you're right.

[Strelac]

SS 5.1 has rather short charge distances (I think 15 or 20) and that seems to reduce a lot of the partial charges. The problem is that it doesn't look as good visually (as they charge too late, with the enemy almost in their face), and possibly reduce the charge effectiveness of cavalry (no distance to gain momentum).

They would still have the problem if unit is fired upon with arrows as they prepare to charge. Reducing the charge distance, helps to minimize this occurrence, just solely based on the lesser exposure - less chance for thigs to get messed up.

Some theory behind interrupted charge:

This is the normal charge, and it will be effective. Distance between rows and colums do not matter.

* * * * * * * * Row 1

* * * * * * * * Row 2

* * * * * * * * Row 3

* * * * * * * * Row 4


This will result most likely in interrupted charge.


* * * * * * * * Row 2
* * * * * * * * Row1

* * * * * * * * Row 3

* * * * * * * * Row 4

Why is the row 1 behind row 2? Well, this happens from variety of reason, but most often due to arrows hits ( units play animations of stopping or moving backward), and due to obstacles on the ground.

As short term solution for 1.5 version, I made the unit more separated which allows bots more space for correcting the formation. Although, this is contrary to what most moders do, in my experience this seems to work the best, and charge distance is not impacted.
The ultimate fix will need some animation tweaking which is what I will do in the future.

[The Noble Lord]

for 1.5 version,

Hey Strelac, good work. Any hints when 1.5 would be released??


CHEERS

[♔Old Dragoon♔]

Can anything be done about this by the Broken Crescent team, or is that hard-coded too? It seems amazing, what a terrible mess CA made of Medieval 2 Total War....

Well, you have to micro-manage a wee' little. After the half arse charge click them behind the unit they are charging, and then quickly click them on them again to charge the unit then you will have a more complete charge. Also with the 'pikemen' use 'alt+a' and click where you want them to go and they will march closer 'in-syque.' Hope this helps!

[Thema'zandaar]

Well, you have to micro-manage a wee' little. After the half arse charge click them behind the unit they are charging, and then quickly click them on them again to charge the unit then you will have a more complete charge. Also with the 'pikemen' use 'alt+a' and click where you want them to go and they will march closer 'in-syque.' Hope this helps!

I didn't know that. That's like flying a space shuttle. Anyone for Space:Total War? With Mongols?